Members Login
Username 
 
Password 
    Remember Me  
Post Info TOPIC: Ross and Demelza their grown up Children


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 215
Date: Nov 8 2:09 PM, 2018
RE: Ross and Demelza their grown up Children
Permalink  
 


You have a good memory Fijane. Here is the excerpt from the book explaining Jeremy's feelings about Demelza giving birth.  

 The Harveys have invited me to stay the night, so . . ..

Why do you not make it two?

Oh, as near as that, is it?

I did not say so.

 Well, a nod is as good as a wink. I know when Im not wanted. Though I shall not be at all happy to be away from it all.

 It is a horse whim of mine, said Demelza.

 Oh, my dear Mama, now I know you are not feeling well!

 

The Miller's Dance:  (p. 364). Kindle Edition.



__________________


Graduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 583
Date: Nov 7 11:11 PM, 2018
Permalink  
 

Fijane wrote:

 

On a side note, going "down the pan" means being flushed down the toilet here - is that what you were referring to?


Fijane - thanks for clarifying the meaning of the phrase "going down the pan" which I used in the context of my deteriorating short term memory. Clearly it doesn't fit this context.



__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 256
Date: Nov 7 9:57 PM, 2018
Permalink  
 

From all the previous posts it seems that it was Demelza who wanted the pregnancy swept under the carpet (as it were). Ross talks of her confinement out in society in a matter of fact way, because it was, in fact, a common occurrence for women to be enciente right up to menopause. A woman of her age being pregnant was nothing new (to society). Jeremy seems more put out by being banished for the birth. If I remember correctly, Clowance is quite matter-of-fact. Ross is very concerned about her safety, but not embarassed by having another child.

But for some reason, Demelza herself is squeamish about it all. Maybe it is just as Blackburr says - she would rather build her nest in private.

 

On a side note, going "down the pan" means being flushed down the toilet here - is that what you were referring to?



__________________


Graduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 583
Date: Nov 7 4:43 PM, 2018
Permalink  
 

Dave wrote:

Jeremy said: What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine and go after that which is lost, until he find it? And when he hath found it he layeth it on his shoulders and beareth it home rejoicing.

I should be a thought heavy for you, said Demelza considering what I bear too. Did your father send you?

 Concern for your well-being, woman, is not confined to one man. The whole family shares it. Think if you were taken queer at Juds. I wouldnt wish a brother or sister of mine reared among Prudies ducklings!

He had taken her arm and they had stopped. Demelza looked up at him.

The Devil can cite scripture for his own purpose. I never imagined you were so well read.

 Ah, another mother who doesnt know her own son!

I thought it was all to do with engines.

 Nearly all, yes.

Demelza found herself facing the way she had come. I still have a sense of direction, she said.

 The Miller's Dance:  (p. 363).  Kindle Edition.

I found this cute. Wasn't it Jeremy who asked Mom and Dad why they sometimes used scripture names and phrases when talking to each other. Here Jeremy is trying the same with Demelza. Trying to seriously to coax her home.

Then on the way home, Jeremy tries to explain the new steam-powered whim to her and she makes this pun.

Well, a nod is as good as a wink. I know when Im not wanted. Though I shall not be at all happy to be away from it all.

It is a horse whim of mine, said Demelza.

Oh, my dear Mama, now I know you are not feeling well!

The Miller's Dance: (p. 364).  Kindle Edition.

Finally, there is this when Demelza sees her fretful husband and concerned doctor.

I see Dwight now, said Demelza, and your father. How anxious they are looking! Do they not look like two mother hens, Jeremy? Do they not now?

 The Miller's Dance:  (p. 370). Kindle Edition.

How do you do it W.G.? When you create such lovable characters as these.

 

 


 Dave - What a lovely exchange between Jeremy and Demelza! Such a gem. Thank you for sharing this. smile



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 215
Date: Nov 7 1:58 PM, 2018
Permalink  
 

Jeremy said: What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine and go after that which is lost, until he find it? And when he hath found it he layeth it on his shoulders and beareth it home rejoicing.

I should be a thought heavy for you, said Demelza considering what I bear too. Did your father send you?

 Concern for your well-being, woman, is not confined to one man. The whole family shares it. Think if you were taken queer at Juds. I wouldnt wish a brother or sister of mine reared among Prudies ducklings!

He had taken her arm and they had stopped. Demelza looked up at him.

The Devil can cite scripture for his own purpose. I never imagined you were so well read.

 Ah, another mother who doesnt know her own son!

I thought it was all to do with engines.

 Nearly all, yes.

Demelza found herself facing the way she had come. I still have a sense of direction, she said.

 The Miller's Dance:  (p. 363).  Kindle Edition.

I found this cute. Wasn't it Jeremy who asked Mom and Dad why they sometimes used scripture names and phrases when talking to each other. Here Jeremy is trying the same with Demelza. Trying to seriously to coax her home.

Then on the way home, Jeremy tries to explain the new steam-powered whim to her and she makes this pun.

Well, a nod is as good as a wink. I know when Im not wanted. Though I shall not be at all happy to be away from it all.

It is a horse whim of mine, said Demelza.

Oh, my dear Mama, now I know you are not feeling well!

The Miller's Dance: (p. 364).  Kindle Edition.

Finally, there is this when Demelza sees her fretful husband and concerned doctor.

I see Dwight now, said Demelza, and your father. How anxious they are looking! Do they not look like two mother hens, Jeremy? Do they not now?

 The Miller's Dance:  (p. 370). Kindle Edition.

How do you do it W.G.? When you create such lovable characters as these.

 

 



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 215
Date: Nov 2 1:37 PM, 2018
Permalink  
 

After these last posts, I had to go back an read the part where Demelza informs Ross she is pregnant again. I hope I didn't cause confusion about embarrassment. I wrote that I thought Demelza held back announcing her pregnancies from embarrassment. I can't ever see Ross being embarrassed especially about this. I do think he was worried about Demelza health as these passages indicate. Like I wrote before he is very manly I believe in accepting it like a man. 

He took up his pipe and began to fill it. It was not done very expertly tonight. Every time this happened with Demelza it got worse. Each time he found he had more to lose. He had hoped it would never occur again. Im very selfish, he said. I think only of you. That doesnt sound selfish. Well it is. Because the older I get, the older we both get, the more I depend on you. I know that, Ross. At least, I feel it so also. It operates both ways. But in what respect will this alter it? He hesitated. Not at all if it is as the others have been. Well, then. That is how it shall be. He held his tongue, not wanting to damp her with his own fears.

 Well call him, she said, Vennor. Or Drake. Or Francis. Why not Garrick? Ross suggested, and dodged the cushion she threw at him. But he was not amused. There was no laughter in him at all.

 

 The Miller's Dance: A Novel of Cornwall 1812-1813  (pp 138-139).. Kindle Edition.



__________________


Honorary Life Member. Forum Moderator

Status: Offline
Posts: 883
Date: Nov 2 9:30 AM, 2018
Permalink  
 

Little Henry, I was thinking about Ross' immediate reactions to Demelza's news to each of her pregnancies.   He was certainly surprised and I think uneasy about it, which I believe is where his embarrassment came in. She was delighted and he couldn't share her feelings.  After a gap of ten years, it took some digesting to consider all the implications of what she had just told him.

Once he'd got used to the idea, as you say, he was neither uneasy nor embarrassed about having another child.  His concern was all for his beloved Demelza and his thoughts of all that could go wrong.

 

 



__________________


Initiate

Status: Offline
Posts: 97
Date: Nov 1 10:31 PM, 2018
Permalink  
 

Mrs. Gimlett,

I really don't think that Ross was embarrassed at all about Demelza's last pregnancy.  When Demelza says the older children might find it a bit inopportune  (I think she thinks that they might be a bit embarrassed) he readily says "I'll knock their heads together if they show the least sign of thinking that".  Later at the fair he tells Falmouth very matter of factly and it seems to me proudly, that "We are expecting our fifth child in December".  As a matter of fact I wonder if Ross was ever embarrassed?  All through his moods, outrageous behaviour and tempers he never to me seems embarrassed.  It implies blushing and I can't imagine Ross doing that.



__________________


Graduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 583
Date: Nov 1 10:30 PM, 2018
Permalink  
 

Mrs Gimlett wrote:

Hello Stella

I see you are online.  I thought 'going down the pan'  was an American phrase!  Maybe it's not though.  It definitely isn't Cornish - the only pans they have are for clotted cream...


 Hello Mrs G - Yes I have just got home from a very enjoyable music event and couldn't resist posting. You are probably right about the origin of the phrase 'going down the pan'. As I was writing about my memory fading, the phrase popped into my head. It seemed to convey something more than just a mild deterioration, which I find very frustrating. I didn't know that the Cornish used the word pan in the context of clotted cream.

 



-- Edited by Stella Poldark on Thursday 1st of November 2018 10:31:38 PM

__________________


Honorary Life Member. Forum Moderator

Status: Offline
Posts: 883
Date: Nov 1 10:18 PM, 2018
Permalink  
 

Hello Stella

I see you are online.  I thought 'going down the pan'  was an American phrase!  Maybe it's not though.  It definitely isn't Cornish - the only pans they have are for clotted cream...



__________________


Graduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 583
Date: Nov 1 10:11 PM, 2018
Permalink  
 

Dave wrote:

Mrs Gimlett - I have checked and found that, of course you are right about the book in which Demelza was pregnant. As you say, it is 'The Miller's Dance'. My memory is going down the pan rapidly confuse

Awe I can't believe that your "memory going down the pan". Going down the pan is that a Cornwallian colloquialism? I like that. We must be allowed to make a mistake or two. 


 Dave - Thank you so much for your kind words but I fear that my memory is not at all what it used to be so any help is always welcome smile  "Going down the pan" is not a Cornwallian colloqialism but I don't know what its origin is. wink



-- Edited by Stella Poldark on Thursday 1st of November 2018 10:13:56 PM

__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 215
Date: Nov 1 6:27 PM, 2018
Permalink  
 

Mrs Gimlett - I have checked and found that, of course you are right about the book in which Demelza was pregnant. As you say, it is 'The Miller's Dance'. My memory is going down the pan rapidly confuse

Awe I can't believe that your "memory going down the pan". Going down the pan is that a Cornwallian colloquialism? I like that. We must be allowed to make a mistake or two. 



__________________


Graduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 583
Date: Nov 1 2:52 PM, 2018
Permalink  
 

Stella Poldark wrote:
Mrs Gimlett wrote:

Are you sure that Demelza is pregnant during the Loving Cup?  I thought it was in The Miller's Dance.

Fijane is quite right, Ross has been appraised of the pregnancy - she tells him when Jeremy and Clowance are away for the night in Truro, having attended a play in the Assembly Rooms as part of Valentine's party.


 Mrs Gimlett - I shall check that but, because I remembered it, I assumed it must be in the book I am currently reading wink



-- Edited by Stella Poldark on Thursday 1st of November 2018 10:40:29 AM


 Mrs Gimlett - I have checked and found that, of course you are right about the book in which Demelza was pregnant. As you say, it is 'The Miller's Dance'. My memory is going down the pan rapidly confuse



__________________


Graduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 583
Date: Nov 1 10:18 AM, 2018
Permalink  
 

Mrs Gimlett wrote:

Are you sure that Demelza is pregnant during the Loving Cup?  I thought it was in The Miller's Dance.

Fijane is quite right, Ross has been appraised of the pregnancy - she tells him when Jeremy and Clowance are away for the night in Truro, having attended a play in the Assembly Rooms as part of Valentine's party.


 Mrs Gimlett - I shall check that but, because I remembered it, I assumed it must be in the book I am currently reading wink



-- Edited by Stella Poldark on Thursday 1st of November 2018 10:40:29 AM

__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 102
Date: Nov 1 9:35 AM, 2018
Permalink  
 

And finally, my two cents on Mrs G's observation about finding it impossible to talk about a first love - I think this points exactly to what I find annoying about Jeremy and Clowance: both of them seemed eager to talk about their feelings, while at the same time being embarassed about it. I think Bella was much more straightforward in this respect, not trying to talk when she found it impossible - and I do admire her for it.

__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 102
Date: Nov 1 9:23 AM, 2018
Permalink  
 


Stella & Mrs G - I completely agree that there is more learning to be had from one's own mistakes. I see Ross and Demelza's parenting as an attempt at letting their children do precisely that - but I think the story also shows precisely how difficult it is - even with the best intentions - to achieve that in a loving family environment.

I feel that it would be far easier for the kids to separate from their family home to make their own mistakes if that home was loving but strict. Otherwise, in a loving and unrestrictive home, the kids end up guessing/inferring what their parents' rules are and imposing those guessed rules on themselves. Those rules, however - despite being internalized by the kids - are not their own but their parents'. And the kids have a much harder time distancing themselves from those rules precisely because they have been internalized.

Another stark example of how a loving relationship can make it hard for the kid to draw a line between themselves and their parents is - I find - when Bella is having "the talk" with Ross on their way back from Rouen - and she only realizes that it wasn't Ross's business at all to ask her the question he did after she had already answered it.

If even the independent Bella had trouble recognizing where to draw the line, how much harder would it have been for the older two? It seems to me that Jeremy and Clowance's way of dealing with it was to simply not give rise to a coversation about drawing the line in the first place. This can appear mature, as the kid seems to behave responsibly, but I don't think it is really mature at all.

-- Edited by Blackleburr on Thursday 1st of November 2018 06:17:19 PM

__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 102
Date: Nov 1 9:07 AM, 2018
Permalink  
 

Fijane & Hollyhock - I think your observations on Clowance's need for guidance & her being ruled by her "raging hormones" are spot on, and I'd like to add a few more thoughts around this:

1) Why was Demelza so reluctant to give Clowance any meaningful advice? In Bowood, she only made a moot point about considering what really matters, not wealth or position - as if any if those were even remotely relevant for Clowance! Later, there was also a scene in "Bella Poldark" where Clowance was talking with her parents and Ross half-jokingly suggested that they might let Clowance know which one of her suitors they liked better. Demelza was horrified by the suggestion, and refused to give an answer. Was she afraid to admit she preferred Edward lest anyone took it as a preference for his wealth and status?

2) In fact, I think Clowance needed guidance on a more fundamental level than simply which suitor to choose. Deep down I think she was well aware that her relationship with Stephen was raising a whole lot of red flags - she doubted whether he could be trusted, and to some extent she even doubted whether he really loved her. These were precisely the concerns her parents also had, and had they been more vocal about them, Clowance would have been forced to confront those concerns in the open. This would have helped her, I think, to make an informed decision - either "I realize these are the risks and I'm willing to take them, even though my parents don't think it is a wise choice" or "I agree that my decision should be based on what matters most - and because trust and love are two such things, I cannot get married without them".

3) I agree that in the case of Stephen, Clowance mistook her "raging hormones" for love - and I think that if her parents had put up some more resistance against Stephen, it could have helped to bring the issue to the surface. We are told that Clowance believed that she was expected (by her family? by society? by herself?) to think of marriage as the only acceptable outlet for the physical attraction she felt towards Stephen, even though she knew many people - many girls - did not live up to that expectation. Had she talked about it with Ross and Demelza, she would have found out that neither of them could keep a straight face beeing too orthodox about it. Also, perhaps they would have been able to explain to Clowance that there was much more to a marriage than just the "electricity"?

-- Edited by Blackleburr on Thursday 1st of November 2018 09:07:32 AM

__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 102
Date: Nov 1 9:03 AM, 2018
Permalink  
 

I also don't think Demelza was trying to hide any of her pregnancies - after Jeremy - from Ross. She was trying to hide them from everyone else, though, and I think this reflects in some way the "earthiness" of her character - it always reminds me of female animals seeking a secluded, private place for having their young.

Going back to your posts on parenting grown up children - that was a lot of insight to take in, and I needed a while to digest it! Before I respond in detail, let me just say that this is precisely what I like best about a good book - that the same story can mean so many different things to different readers, depending on what personal experience, attitudes and beliefs they filter it through.

-- Edited by Blackleburr on Thursday 1st of November 2018 06:20:13 PM

__________________


Honorary Life Member. Forum Moderator

Status: Offline
Posts: 883
Date: Nov 1 8:59 AM, 2018
Permalink  
 

Are you sure that Demelza is pregnant during the Loving Cup?  I thought it was in The Miller's Dance.

Fijane is quite right, Ross has been appraised of the pregnancy - she tells him when Jeremy and Clowance are away for the night in Truro, having attended a play in the Assembly Rooms as part of Valentine's party.



__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 256
Date: Nov 1 7:02 AM, 2018
Permalink  
 

Stella Poldark wrote:

 Mrs G - I am currently re-reading 'The Loving Cup'. I am now in the final third of the book. Earlier in the book when Jeremy was around we are told that Demelza was busy letting out a dress and hoping no one would notice. Her reason for not wanting anyone to notice was perhaps that she hadn't yet told Ross but it could also have been, as you say, that she liked being busy and wouldn't want to be fussed over.


I think at that stage (letting out the dress) that Ross knew, but Demelza didn't really want to tell Jeremy and Clowance until absolutely necessary. And I think this was just the normal reticence of parents of teens/young adults to share news of a pregnancy because teens assume that their parents are "past all that stuff". I personally know someone in that situation and her teens were very embarrassed and didn't want their friends to know.



-- Edited by Fijane on Thursday 1st of November 2018 07:03:03 AM

__________________


Graduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 583
Date: Oct 31 9:07 PM, 2018
Permalink  
 

Mrs Gimlett wrote:

I am not so sure Demelza was desperately keen to hide her condition from Ross.  Isn't it more that she doesn't like to be less active and cannot bear the thought of getting bigger?

When Demelza became pregnant with Julia, she was still unsure of Ross' feelings for her.  She was very young and quite naïve in some respects - she thought Ross might go off her.  We don't actually know what he thought because we are not privy to that conversation, but I imagine he just accepted it as a natural outcome of their love. 

With Jeremy, you can understand the reluctance to divulge the news because Ross was in such dire straits.  Once he knew though, he was most solicitous for her welfare, tasking Jane Gimlett to keep an eye on her when he couldn't be there.

After Christmas 1793, Demelza was very quick off the mark with her news.  That was most likely because they had discovered each other again and were in the throes of a second honeymoon. They were going through one of their most passionate phases.

We know nothing about Bella's birth of course, but it is mentioned a few times that Ross was out of the country in 1802, a time during which Demelza must have been pregnant.

I think her next pregnancy was more of an embarrassment to Ross than anything else.  That and the worry of Demelza going all through the process again at a more advanced age.  All childbearing was hazardous, but much more so as women aged.  Happily, Demelza was a very youthful 42.  Ross was most anxious, but then, when was he ever not anxious? They each had bundles of nervous energy - probably why they were both slim.

 


 Mrs G - I am currently re-reading 'The Loving Cup'. I am now in the final third of the book. Earlier in the book when Jeremy was around we are told that Demelza was busy letting out a dress and hoping no one would notice. Her reason for not wanting anyone to notice was perhaps that she hadn't yet told Ross but it could also have been, as you say, that she liked being busy and wouldn't want to be fussed over.



__________________


Honorary Life Member. Forum Moderator

Status: Offline
Posts: 883
Date: Oct 31 7:17 PM, 2018
Permalink  
 

I am not so sure Demelza was desperately keen to hide her condition from Ross.  Isn't it more that she doesn't like to be less active and cannot bear the thought of getting bigger?

When Demelza became pregnant with Julia, she was still unsure of Ross' feelings for her.  She was very young and quite naïve in some respects - she thought Ross might go off her.  We don't actually know what he thought because we are not privy to that conversation, but I imagine he just accepted it as a natural outcome of their love. 

With Jeremy, you can understand the reluctance to divulge the news because Ross was in such dire straits.  Once he knew though, he was most solicitous for her welfare, tasking Jane Gimlett to keep an eye on her when he couldn't be there.

After Christmas 1793, Demelza was very quick off the mark with her news.  That was most likely because they had discovered each other again and were in the throes of a second honeymoon. They were going through one of their most passionate phases.

We know nothing about Bella's birth of course, but it is mentioned a few times that Ross was out of the country in 1802, a time during which Demelza must have been pregnant.

I think her next pregnancy was more of an embarrassment to Ross than anything else.  That and the worry of Demelza going all through the process again at a more advanced age.  All childbearing was hazardous, but much more so as women aged.  Happily, Demelza was a very youthful 42.  Ross was most anxious, but then, when was he ever not anxious? They each had bundles of nervous energy - probably why they were both slim.

 



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 215
Date: Oct 31 2:04 PM, 2018
Permalink  
 

Stella wrote  Dave - I think there is more than one reason. She knows Ross always worries when she is pregnant. Childbirth in those days was risky and many women died while giving birth. I think Demelza wanted to keep it from Ross for as long as possible. When she was pregnant with Jeremy, Demelza knew that Ross didn't want another child, at least for some time so she didn't tell him for a long time. I think Demelza did not enjoy being pregnant although she loved having children. Another possibility is that she didn't like to be fussed over but I cannot recall any examples of this. Perhaps others can?

Ross, well maybe before Demelza becomes pregnant but afterward he is always supportive. I give W.G. credit for that, it makes Ross to his credit a real man. I like the possibility about Demelza hates to be fussed over. Yes, I can see that in her character. 



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 215
Date: Oct 31 1:58 PM, 2018
Permalink  
 

Why do you think Demelza always tries to hide her pregnancies? With Jeremy, I believe it was because of their dire financial straits and so close to Julia's death and other things. My belief is that she is a modest person and is somewhat embarrassed about her situation.

I am not a genderist but I will yield to opinions of all the Moms out there. 



__________________


Graduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 583
Date: Oct 31 1:36 PM, 2018
Permalink  
 

Dave wrote:

Demelza was surreptitiously letting out a frock, but none of her children bothered to inquire what she was doing. It was early days yet but she didnt want to be caught unawares. Becoming large was the only part of child-bearing she hated.

 The Miller's Dance: A Novel of Cornwall 1812-1813  (pp. 217-218).  Kindle Edition.

 

Why do you think Demelza always tries to hide her pregnancies? With Jeremy, I believe it was because of their dire financial straits and so close to Julia's death and other things. My belief is that she is a modest person and is somewhat embarrassed about her situation. 


 Dave - I think there is more than one reason. She knows Ross always worries when she is pregnant. Childbirth in those days was risky and many women died while giving birth. I think Demelza wanted to keep it from Ross for as long as possible. When she was pregnant with Jeremy, Demelza knew that Ross didn't want another child, at least for some time so she didn't tell him for a long time. I think Demelza did not enjoy being pregnant although she loved having children. Another possibility is that she didn't like to be fussed over but I cannot recall any examples of this. Perhaps others can?



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 215
Date: Oct 31 1:32 PM, 2018
Permalink  
 

Stella writes So - Dave - do you think Ross would not have become restless and requiring some excitement?  Do you not think Ross might have grown tired of Elizabeth? What about his concern for the poor people in Cornwall? I don't think it would have turned out the way you see it. wink

Yeah, I do see these scenarios, especially weary of Elizabeth. It is fun to think of all kinds of situations for Ross. Remember also his environment and status would be different. Could be he becomes one the Elites with all their attitudes and accountrements. Terrible to think of the alternatives to the Ross in the books. 



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 215
Date: Oct 31 1:23 PM, 2018
Permalink  
 

Demelza was surreptitiously letting out a frock, but none of her children bothered to inquire what she was doing. It was early days yet but she didnt want to be caught unawares. Becoming large was the only part of child-bearing she hated.

 The Miller's Dance: A Novel of Cornwall 1812-1813  (pp. 217-218).  Kindle Edition.

 

Why do you think Demelza always tries to hide her pregnancies? With Jeremy, I believe it was because of their dire financial straits and so close to Julia's death and other things. My belief is that she is a modest person and is somewhat embarrassed about her situation. 



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 249
Date: Oct 25 6:17 PM, 2018
Permalink  
 

Just wanted to say that a surprise for me in the Clowance drama was the always unpredictable Caroline's response. Since she was willing to risk losing her fortune to be with Dwight, I was afraid that she would be more sympathetic towards Clowance. However, her insistence about giving Clowance more exposure was wonderfully level-headed. I was happy she took a firm hand.

After setting eyes on Stephen, the teenaged Clowance was ruled more by her raging hormones than her desire to please her parents. Like many young girls who think themselves in love, she desperately wanted her parents to love her heartthrob too. But if she hadn't gotten their consent to marry, she was prepared to give herself to Stephen anyway. Those torrid make out sessions at Trenwith were proof of that. Demelza suspected what Clowance was up to and that played a part in her decision.

Although it isn't mentioned, I also wondered if Demelza had Morwenna's case in the back of her mind. No one, especially Edward, could have been the monster that Ossie was, but if Clowance had married to please her parents, would she always have wondered, what if...? Would she have been happy with anyone else thinking she had given up her true love to please others.

 



__________________


Graduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 583
Date: Oct 25 4:38 PM, 2018
Permalink  
 

Dave wrote:

Grace lives.

Whenever I come to these aspects of the Poldark story, in my mind I write an alternative turn in the story. Grace lives. Ross continues his education and pretty much stays out of trouble. No military service instead is shipped off to Oxford, becomes a Mining Engineer. Returns to Cornwall. Marries Elizabeth. Through his intellect and drive owns and operates several successful mines and businesses in Cornwall.  Becomes moderately wealthy.  As a respected member of this society becomes an MP. This pleases Elizabeth which pleases Ross that Elizabeth is pleased and will be able to show off her talents to an appreciative society.

No drama here, no Saga also.  

 


 So - Dave - do you think Ross would not have become restless and requiring some excitement?  Do you not think Ross might have grown tired of Elizabeth? What about his concern for the poor people in Cornwall? I don't think it would have turned out the way you see it. wink



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 215
Date: Oct 25 4:32 PM, 2018
Permalink  
 

Grace lives.

Whenever I come to these aspects of the Poldark story, in my mind I write an alternative turn in the story. Grace lives. Ross continues his education and pretty much stays out of trouble. No military service instead is shipped off to Oxford, becomes a Mining Engineer. Returns to Cornwall. Marries Elizabeth. Through his intellect and drive owns and operates several successful mines and businesses in Cornwall.  Becomes moderately wealthy.  As a respected member of this society becomes an MP. This pleases Elizabeth which pleases Ross that Elizabeth is pleased and will be able to show off her talents to an appreciative society.

No drama here, no Saga also.  

 



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 215
Date: Oct 25 2:37 PM, 2018
Permalink  
 

Good post Mrs. G. Those are my thoughts also. I haven't yet read to the end of the books so I cannot comment on what happens to the children.  I was sad at the end of The Stranger that Clowance didn't marry Lord Edward. Great scene and writing by W.G. at the end.

Very politely but with a little tautness in his manner, Lord Edward came down the steps to see them off. The coach crackled and crunched on the loose gravel as the coachman made a turn, his horse providing a staccato of hooves and snorts as they got under way. As they left, bowling along the fine avenue towards the far distant gates, Edward turned and went up the steps again and walked thoughtfully through the great house. It seemed very quiet after the fuss and bustle of the last two weeks. On Thursday the family would begin to assemble themselves for a Friday departure for Scotland. They would arrive in good time for the twelfth. In his spacious bedroom looking out over the ornamental gardens Edward went to his desk, opened it and took from a drawer a letter he had written last Friday to Captain Ross Poldark. He read it through a couple of times before tearing it across and across and dropping it into the wastepaper basket. He blew his nose and walked to the window to see if the chaise was out of sight. It was. He went down to rejoin the others. The Stranger From The Sea (p. 499).  Kindle Edition.

However, when I started reading The Miller's Dance I accepted the reasons for her refusal.

Stephen Carrington, the unpredictable, tawny-haired man of action and stranger from the sea, helping to build the engine house for Wheal Leisure mine far away in Cornwall, had been the most important factor behind Clowances personal refusal of Edward Fitzmaurice. No doubt there were other considerations to be taken into account, principally the realization of her special love of Cornwall and of the outdoor life she had lived since she was a child. She would have had to exchange the wild rides on the beach, the bathing and swimming, the barefoot walks over the cliffs, the whole carefree existence of a child of nature for the artificiality of London life and polite society, overheated drawing-rooms and insincere conversation; a young titled lady far away from all her family and friends.  Miller's Dance:  (pp. 8-9).. Kindle Edition

I might add most importantly  Clowance didn't love Lord Edward. I also was thinking that Demelza and Ross had no real good role models to go by. It is interesting to think if Grace, Ross's mother, had not died the influence she might have had on Ross. W.G. always does that to me, leave tantalizing bits to make me wonder "what if"  things might have been different.

 

 



__________________


Honorary Life Member. Forum Moderator

Status: Offline
Posts: 883
Date: Oct 25 10:28 AM, 2018
Permalink  
 

I also have different views about the interaction between R&D and Clowance and Jeremy.

Both Ross and Demelza had grown up with little proper guidance from their parent(s).  The choices they made were done of their own volition, apart from Ross' father arranging for him to go to America, though Ross readily consented to it.  I imagine they wanted their children to have the same freedom of choice too, but were always available to listen and offer advice if it was sought.

When Demelza and Clowance visited Bowood, D gave very sound advice to her daughter.  Her main wish was for her to be happy.  She voices her thoughts about not allowing Edward's rank and wealth to influence any decision she may have to make.  For many a miner's daughter, brought up in appalling conditions of violence and poverty, the prospect of a daughter of hers marrying a Marquis' brother would have been a no brainer.  Demelza, however, points out their differences and asks Clowance not to be blinded by the obvious.  At the same time, I think a small part of D would have been delighted by such a match, not for the kudos, but because it would mean Clowance never having to face the worries and experiences which she had gone through. I don't think that is hypocritical, just natural. 

Had Clowance been a girl desperate for her parents' approval of everything, she would have accepted Lord Edward, because she would think it the right thing to do and she knew of Ross' high opinion of his family.  She most definitely would not have married Stephen, as she was very much aware of R&D's indifference to him.  Yes, Clowance was confused by the suddenness of choices open to her - perhaps that is why she shed some tears after she refused Edward -  but isn't that true of many girls at that age?

Jeremy played his cards very close to his chest.  However, I think he knew just what he wanted, but because of his perceived disapproval by Ross of his interest in strong steam, he was very reluctant to come clean about it, even when it became obvious that to further his wishes over Wheal Leisure's new engine, he would have to.  Jeremy was secretive, but only over that, until the incident on the Self Reliance. To me he wasn't after approval from his parents, he rather wanted to avoid disapproval.  His main torment was over Cuby, which many a young man of any period would struggle to deal with. Everybody going through first love thinks they are the only one to experience such angst and it's impossible and embarrassing to talk about it.

The main thing was that all R&D's children knew they were loved.  By that stage they were a happy united family and in such an environment questions of parental approval are scarcely thought about. In my experience, it is perfectly normal for children growing up not to share absolutely everything with their parents.  They cherish thoughts, hopes, dreams and ideas much better kept to themselves.  It's all part of the maturing process.

 

 

 

 

 



-- Edited by Mrs Gimlett on Thursday 25th of October 2018 10:38:30 AM



-- Edited by Mrs Gimlett on Thursday 25th of October 2018 10:44:15 AM



-- Edited by Mrs Gimlett on Thursday 25th of October 2018 08:04:23 PM

__________________


Graduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 583
Date: Oct 24 11:46 PM, 2018
Permalink  
 

I have a different perspective on Ross and Demelza's approach to parenting. It isn't easy for parents to stand back and allow their children to make their own decisions, especially at a time when parents assumed almost complete power over their children. Of course children will make mistakes with or without their parents advice or directives. There is more learning to be had by making our own decisions and potentially more self-confidence to acquire. Clowance was aware of her parents' views on Stephen but her character was such that she had to learn the hard way and it took her a long time. I don't see how refusing her permission to marry Stephen would have helped at all. 



__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 256
Date: Oct 24 7:36 AM, 2018
Permalink  
 

I think you are right, Blackleburr, to wonder if Jeremy and Clowance were ready for the freedom. In some ways, they took it for granted, but they must have felt the difference between them and their peers. Their peers (the gentry children) would have been much more strictly parented, and I wonder if sometimes J & C wished for some more definite boundaries. Certainly Clowance, when she was caught between several suitors, seemed to be wanting Demelza to give more definite guidance.

As you say, Bella is different, and the things you admire about her are the same things that annoy me. I see her as quite spoilt, and sometimes wish that WG had taken her character in a completely different direction.



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 102
Date: Oct 24 3:07 AM, 2018
Permalink  
 

Fijane - interesting thoughts, thanks for sharing!

The more I think about it, the more reasons I find for my uneasiness:

For one thing, it bothers me how much Demelza feels the need to explain to people that she and Ross have decided to let their children choose their spouse freely - at various points she gives the "sales talk" to Clowance, Caroline, Christopher Havergal and Ben Carter. It is almost as if she was trying to convince herself that their decision was good/right. Could it be that Demelza was not quite sincere in supporting her children's freedom of choice - but did so because Ross thought it was right?

For another, I was thinking about something young Andrew Blamey said to Clowance (when they discussed his return to the Packet Service) - "you don't live your life to please your parents" - and it struck me that neither Jeremy nor Clowance seemed quite convinced about this. True, they had a pretty clear idea how they wanted to live their lives, but at the same time they very much wanted their parents' approval for it, to the point that they were not completely happy without that approval. To me, this says that probably they were not ready yet for the freedom that their parents were pushing on them. What makes me uneasy, therefore, is perhaps the question whether free choice can still be considered free when it is being pushed on someone who doesn't want it?

That, and the half-heartedness on the children's part in wanting/accepting the freedom. For a long time Verity was similarly half-hearted about her future with Andrew - and I felt uneasy about that, too - but in the end she had the courage of her own conviction, and has never regretted it since.

Bella's attitude was different, I think - when she knew what she wanted, she went for it and only worried about her parents' permission/approval later. As a result, it wasn't necessary for her parents to explain anything about freedom of choice to her at all - if anything, they were trying to moderate that freedom to some extent by keeping her suitors at a distance while Bella was convalescing from her illness, just to give her space to recover - and even then, I doubt if that was really needed in her case.

Overall, I found reading about Bella's interactions with her parents less cringy than Jeremy's and Clowance's. I wonder if it is because Ross and Demelza were more experienced parents by then, because Bella's personality was more independent, or because she was dealing with Ross more than with Demelza?

__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 256
Date: Oct 16 9:39 AM, 2018
Permalink  
 

Blackleburr, you mention feeling uneasy reading those scenes. I have too, and after re-reading several times, I have realised that I simply don't agree with their parenting style. This is a personal preference on my part, I believe in a bit more discipline. Bella's storyline quite distressed me because she could have got into very real trouble, and it felt like Ross and Demelza shrugged their shoulders a bit as if to say "girls will be girls". That is why many of the scenes annoy me, because they are often the children asking for something that I think the parents should say no, but they say essentially "make up your own mind".

Possibly not a popular view, but that is my reason.



-- Edited by Fijane on Tuesday 16th of October 2018 09:39:32 AM

__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 249
Date: Oct 14 1:57 PM, 2018
Permalink  
 

Wasn't it the wonderful Maggie Smith's character on Downton Abbey who said that parents were obligated to spend one hour a day, before dinner, with their children? And that's the only time children should be seen or heard. Otherwise they should never be allowed to leave the nursery or their governesses.

Fortunately, Ross didn't share this opinion. Compared to most fathers of the time, he was very involved with his children, all of them. Demelza herself said that he was the indulgent parent. Demelza's fear of Ross getting angry was related to Clowance's Trenwith trespasses. She was afraid that George would humiliate or maybe even prosecute Ross. (Why Clowance felt free to blatantly ignore her parents' instructions is another issue altogether.)

The only definite 'work' Ross ever assigned Jeremy was to go down Grace twice a week when he, Ross, was away. That was to remind the miners, some of whom had stolen ore before, that there was a Poldark presence at the mine.

Like Ross before them, all the Poldark children preferred Nampara to formal schooling. Clowance ran away from school repeatedly. Ross offered to send Jeremy to Oxford or Cambridge; he declined. Since he loved the farm, I think Jeremy happily pitched in at harvest, etc. But he avoided being present when the more unpleasant aspects of farm life took place--slaughtering animals, killing rodents, etc. Otherwise, he could 'go fishing' or do whatever took his fancy. As Ross once told Mrs. Teague, farming was not a hobby with him. Nampara was a working farm and no one worked harder than Ross. Jeremy was happy to help make the farm a success.

 



-- Edited by Hollyhock on Sunday 14th of October 2018 04:55:07 PM

__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 102
Date: Oct 14 10:42 AM, 2018
Permalink  
 

Dark Mare,

Yours is an amazing response, but I fundamentally don't agree with it.

1a. They should not be surprised that Jeremy preferred his friends' company, because he was 20 years old and that's precisely the time when you're the least keen to invite your parents into your own life. You might be persuaded to take part in your parents' life - if you long to spend more time together, or simply want to be civil towards them - and had Ross invited Jeremy to join some activity of his (Ross's) own, I'm sure Jeremy would accept, and perhaps it wouldn't be just out of civility.

1b. I don't believe Ross's absences were a problem for anyone except Demelza. For the kids, that was just how their father was. After all, the absences did not build any barriers between Ross and Clowance, and I see no reason why it should be different with Jeremy.

1c. All in all, I don't think Ross was away for more than half of the time - that's not bad, even by today's standards. At the time it must have been even less unusual, given that boys used to go to sea (James & Andrew Blamey, the eldest Treneglos) or to the army (Havergal, Armitage, even Geoffrey Charles - if a bit later) in their mid-teens and see nothing of their fathers for months on end.

2. I didn't ask why Jeremy refused to take Ross on the boat, because in this instance it was obvious - he didn't want his father to find out about his steam experiments. More generally, if Jeremy didn't want to spend more time with his father, doesn't it prove the point I make in 1b above, that Jeremy probably felt the time they did spend together was enough?

3a. Demelza was easy not only on Jeremy - she had a general notion that it was her job to shield their children from Ross's reproach. I think the reason was that she was herself scared of Ross's anger, maybe even more so of his anger with the kids than with herself. To me that was a big mistake and it caused the kids more harm than good.

3b. Demelza compensating Jeremy for unfair demands from Ross? Seems unlikely. Most of the time Demelza deferred to Caroline, Verity or Ross on the proper course of genteel upbringing. How come would she have such strong feelings on this one? And why would she want to compare Jeremy with Geoffrey Charles or Francis - when she knew and appreciated how much different Ross's background was from theirs?

4. The distance between Ross and Jeremy was there because Jeremy longed for his father's approval, but was afraid to ask for it. The longing for approval bit was quite foreign to Ross (he didn't seem to care a jot whether his father would like what he was doing or not; since the age of 12 he knew - somewhat unexpectedly to him - that Joshua cared for him, and that was enough), but he was willing to accept the difference. The being too afraid to ask bit was a weakness in Ross's eyes that he could not stand.

I think that perhaps Ross's offer to go on the boat with Jeremy was his way of noticing his son's dilemma and trying to make it easier for him to ask for the blessing he so wanted. When Jeremy refused, it could have been the shying away from the challenge that irked Ross more than anything else.

5. You say, "It is as if he was trying to replicate his own childhood from his father's side." Seeing what a man Ross became with such a treatment, I could hardly blame him for trying to replicate it. I agree it was rather a Spartan attitude, and Jeremy and Valentine got to be sacrificed in the process, but since Ross was a gambler by nature, it fit him perfectly - and while he got his fair share of suffering with it, I think he only ever regretted the bad outcomes of the coin toss, not the tossing itself.

Having said all that, it was still a pleasure to discuss!

__________________


Initiate

Status: Offline
Posts: 97
Date: Oct 13 11:53 PM, 2018
Permalink  
 

Dark Mare,

Reading your post made me so sad as there was truth in it.  As a matter of fact while reading "The Miller's Dance" I was going to post under "saddest moments" how Ross always has a disappointing reaction to Demelza's pregnancies even though in the last case he didn't want to "damp her with his own fears".  Demelza feels his lack of enthusiasm.  But later Ross writes to her his humourous "inadvisables" for her health and safety while pregnant and I decide to forgive him.  It happens all the time and if he didn't redeem himself so often I suppose I wouldn't be reading and thinking about the books so much.  Ross in the letter says he doesn't wear his heart on his sleeve in family matter which I think does reflect his upbringing.

I can't really agree, though, that Jeremy was expected to do so much more work than say GC.  It is hard to compare as GC was expected to study and become a gentleman whereas Jeremy seems to have had a much freer education and the things he did on the farm and mine, everyone in the family did.  I'm sure Ross took him to the fields and to the mine as a young boy to teach him all sorts of things about running the household and I don't get the feeling that Jeremy ever was bothered by the amount he did and I think he would have been proud to stand in for his father.  When Ross was home there would have been much "quality" time.  In the early years not much is written but there are moments when Ross shows his love for Jeremy - bringing him presents when he finally could afford to (something lacking from the series "Stocking Scene"), having fun bathing and sliding down the dunes and children do not run into a parent's arms in welcome if they do not feel comfortable and close.  Ross was aware of how many teeth Jeremy had and showed care when he was ailing.  Later in life Jeremy tells Stephen C. that when his father was at home the family was a more complete unit.  There are several references in the books to the closeness of the whole family.

I do hate Ross saying that Henry is "too young", also that he, Ross, is "too old" to do certain things with him but he assures Demelza that he cares and loves Henry deeply.  They seem to go "beachcombing" together a lot, talk to each other and go for walks on the beach.  I think Ross's sometime seeming neglect of his children has to do with WG keeping the "Elizabeth" conflict going throughout the books.  Thus the interest in Valentine and then Georgie.  An ongoing guilt on Ross's side and also an ongoing taking his family for granted perhaps.

 

 



__________________


Graduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 558
Date: Oct 13 9:20 AM, 2018
Permalink  
 

Why would they be surprised that he preferred his friends' company? Because his father is home so seldom. They have so little time together. 

The question you didn't ask: Why would he not wish to spend more time with his father given that he is home so seldom? Because they have no real relationship. When Jeremy was young, Ross was much more interested in Geoffrey Charles than he was in Jeremy because, he said, Jeremy too young. (What's that Harry Chapin song, "Cat's in the Cradle"?) 

Why is Demelza so easy on Jeremy and so tolerant of his evasiveness? Because her son was expected to do considerably more work than Ross, Francis or Geoffrey Charles ever did when they were his age. He and Demelza both were filling Ross' shoes so he could go have adventures. She knew the situation was unfair so she let him have a long leash. He gave her no reason to suspect he was involved in anything illegal or immoral so what was the harm? Aside from it being dangerous, of course.

Ross had reason to feel guilty about the distance in his relationship with Jeremy. He put it there. His attempts to get to know his elder son were too little too late until the two were thrown together when Demelza and Clowance were away meeting Edward's family. Before that, Ross was this distant august figure in Jeremy's life, and he became evasive because he had a passion for something that his father considered dangerous, steam power. He didn't want to give it up, but he didn't want to defy his father openly because he had too much respect for him -- as did everyone else in the house. Instead, he hid his interest from everyone. That way, he could pursue his interest without putting anyone else in the house in the position of having to lie for him or to keep secrets from Ross. 

Sadly, Ross didn't learn the lesson. After Jeremy died, instead of making every effort to forge an early relationship with Harry, he took Valentine under his wing. Again Demelza tried to tell him, and again he gave the excuse that this son was "too young." Valentine's death should have made him embrace Harry, but instead it was Valentine's son, Georgie, whom he concerned himself with until Selina took him out of the district. Finally, he then discovered Harry. It is as if he was trying to replicate his own childhood from his father's side. 



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 102
Date: Oct 5 9:59 PM, 2018
Permalink  
 

Dave wrote:

As experience father of four lovely wonderful children, all adults now, this really brought me to attention. What! Jeremy doesn't want the "ole man" accompanying him fishing?

I wonder why Demelza, with her always inquiring analytic mind, didn't think this was strange. Maybe as someone once wrote she spoiled her children especially Jeremy.




Funny that my thoughts were exactly the opposite - why on earth would any of them think that their 20 year old son should want to sail with his father rather than his friends? In fact, I desperately hoped that this conversation was only in jest, but found it annoying that I couldn't be quite sure of that...

Dave wrote:

Ross I believe still has some learning to do with dealing with his children, since Jeremy is his oldest, Ross's experience is still incomplete





I wonder. Ross had been very much a father figure for Demelza in her first years at Nampara. Because of that I would expect him to have some kind of experience in dealing with an adolescent - more so than Demelza, at least.

To think about it, most of the passages about the relationship that Ross and Demelza had with Jeremy and Clowance make for an uneasy reading to me - and for some time I've been trying to figure out why it is so. The best reason I could come up with was that I found it implausible that they never seem to be annoyed/angry with each other (the only exception I can think of was Ross feeling irritated by Jeremy's apparent lack of purpose - but even then, it is almost as if Ross is ashamed of his feelings; strange, given that negative feelings between Ross and Demelza are never taboo). Could this sort of closeness in a family be - in a way - oppressive to the children, standing in the way of their growing up?

__________________


Newbie

Status: Offline
Posts: 15
Date: Oct 5 9:36 PM, 2018
Permalink  
 

I think I need to reread to give a proper answer, but suffice to say I loved the adventures of the grown up children. I remember being gripped by the stagecoach topic.



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 215
Date: Oct 5 1:22 PM, 2018
Permalink  
 

Clowance said: Mama, why do Jeremy and his friends go out fishing so much and never catch any fish? But they do, my handsome. We eat it regularly. But not enough. They go out after breakfast and come back for supper, and their haul is what you or I in a row-boat could cull in a couple of hours! They are not very diligent, any of them. Perhaps they just sit in the sun and dream the day away.

 The Stranger From The Sea  (p. 46).  Kindle Edition

There was some mentioning of the children in the Demelza and Alcoholic topic. I am now reading Stranger, this came to my mind. So I thought it would be better to start with a new Topic on their children.

 Since we are mentioning the children, this caught my eye.  Then this followed. 

Gladly. If youll explain to me why my son wastes at least a day a week on these fishing expeditions especially in this weather. Why dont you ask him? I have. Hes as evasive as a pilchard. I have even offered to accompany him, but he has indicated that he prefers to go with Ben or Paul.

 The Stranger From The Sea  (pp. 311-312). Kindle Edition.

As experience father of four lovely wonderful children, all adults now, this really brought me to attention. What! Jeremy doesn't want the "ole man" accompanying him fishing?

I wonder why Demelza, with her always inquiring analytic mind, didn't think this was strange. Maybe as someone once wrote she spoiled her children especially Jeremy.

Ross I believe still has some learning to do with dealing with his children, since Jeremy is his oldest, Ross's experience is still incomplete

As someone once posted for me, I believe it might have been Mrs. G, it is interesting to see Ross and Demelza interacting with their children during this time.

I don't want to know what's going on here. I haven't read into the Stranger that far. But feel free to comment on Ross and Demelza or the children and other things.  I just love Clowance character at this age, so open, innocent and forthright.

 



__________________
Page 1 of 1  sorted by
 
Quick Reply

Please log in to post quick replies.