I think poor Joan Pascoe feared ending up on the shelf. St John, who was of the right 'class', was short of money and saw in Pascoe a solution to his problem. Joan may well have felt it was the only opportunity of marriage she would get. She probably got quickly disillusioned; St John was selfish and arrogant. It is suggested the union was not successful on any level. Dwight so far as we know, never thought about Joan as anything but a friend.
Harris Pascoe was a brick. He was a real father figure for Ross and they valued each other's friendship. In the early books, Harris had young sons, but they were unmentioned after the first couple of books, otherwise they could have become partners at the bank.
I wonder whether Pascoe ever considered Ross as husband material for Joan?
I have always thought the Prologue would have made an excellent first couple of scenes in a TV series. As it was, the initial two episodes were galloped through so quickly Im sure if I hadnt read the books I wouldnt have known what was going on.
of course these days, viewers are thought not to have much attention span so it must all lurch from frantic action to high drama. A gentle few scenes, where some of the characters are introduced; Choake, Charles, Jud and Prudie, Joshua lying in his bed fretting about what he had let lapse; maybe even Elizabeth reading a letter from Ross and a cut to Ross in uniform, preparing to leave New York, would have perfectly set the scene. You can probably tell I have no experience in TV and hardly ever watch it...
it is wonderful to picture all the Poldark scenes in ones mind!
Mrs Gimlett--You make an excellent point about the Prologue. It, or details in it, are so often forgotten. I wonder if it's because many people rush through it to get to chapter 1? That happened to me the first time I read the book. I also found that the prologue had much more meaning for me when I re-read it after finishing RP. I had an aha moment and wanted to re-read the whole book. The prologue especially makes Joshua more dimensional than his notorious reputation implies. Whether by design or example, Joshua instilled in Ross many of the characteristics that so defined him--his contempt for the dubious values of society, his sense of fair-play, his independence, etc. Except for the woman chasing, I think Ross and Joshua were very much alike. I only hope that when Ross went he was surrounded by loved ones, even if he tried to turn them out.
Mrs Gimlett - I agree with you about the value the Prologue would have brought to the television series. The series could also have included, as a flashback, Joshua's thoughts of Grace as he lay dying and also Joshua's wish to see Jonathan Chynoweth to discuss Ross marrying Elizabeth. There was also Ross' recollections of having spent time with Elizabeth at a party and the two of them going into a Summer house. I'm not sure where this is in the book but it would have explained why Ross was justified in thinking that Elizabeth would have waited for him to return.
I think poor Joan Pascoe feared ending up on the shelf. St John, who was of the right 'class', was short of money and saw in Pascoe a solution to his problem. Joan may well have felt it was the only opportunity of marriage she would get. She probably got quickly disillusioned; St John was selfish and arrogant. It is suggested the union was not successful on any level. Dwight so far as we know, never thought about Joan as anything but a friend.
Harris Pascoe was a brick. He was a real father figure for Ross and they valued each other's friendship. In the early books, Harris had young sons, but they were unmentioned after the first couple of books, otherwise they could have become partners at the bank.
I forgot to mention one other development I found unfair: the husband that Joan Pascoe ends up with. For one thing, she used to have hopes for Dwight, so I can't suspect her judgement could have gone so far astray. For another - and more important - with Harris Pascoe being so much of a guardian angel for Ross, surely he must have known better than to give his daughter away to St John Peter. Why did WG saddle him with a son-in-law like that?!
I have always thought the Prologue would have made an excellent first couple of scenes in a TV series. As it was, the initial two episodes were galloped through so quickly Im sure if I hadnt read the books I wouldnt have known what was going on.
of course these days, viewers are thought not to have much attention span so it must all lurch from frantic action to high drama. A gentle few scenes, where some of the characters are introduced; Choake, Charles, Jud and Prudie, Joshua lying in his bed fretting about what he had let lapse; maybe even Elizabeth reading a letter from Ross and a cut to Ross in uniform, preparing to leave New York, would have perfectly set the scene. You can probably tell I have no experience in TV and hardly ever watch it...
it is wonderful to picture all the Poldark scenes in ones mind!
Mrs Gimlett--You make an excellent point about the Prologue. It, or details in it, are so often forgotten. I wonder if it's because many people rush through it to get to chapter 1? That happened to me the first time I read the book. I also found that the prologue had much more meaning for me when I re-read it after finishing RP. I had an aha moment and wanted to re-read the whole book. The prologue especially makes Joshua more dimensional than his notorious reputation implies. Whether by design or example, Joshua instilled in Ross many of the characteristics that so defined him--his contempt for the dubious values of society, his sense of fair-play, his independence, etc. Except for the woman chasing, I think Ross and Joshua were very much alike. I only hope that when Ross went he was surrounded by loved ones, even if he tried to turn them out.
Gimlett was already up and about, tirelessly and persistently busy in the farmyard. Demelza often wondered at his quietness in the morning, for he never woke them with the clatter of pails or other untoward noise.
Warleggan: A Novel of 1792-1793. (p.315) Kindle Edition.
I smiled when I came across this while reading through Warleggan. Here Demelza is literally validating my supposition that good servants/staff are felt not heard.
Also here is an excerpt of a good servant who is sensitive to the attitude and tempers of their masters and mistresses.
Jane Gimlett looked from one to the other. She could see little, but there was that in their voices which made her go quickly indoors again.
Warleggan: A Novel of 1792-1793 (p. 305). Kindle Edition.
I made reference to how Ross notices the window in the bedroom was clean. He was surprised and pleased that John G. had taken it upon himself to do a chore without always being asked to do it. A good worker will do this, going beyond his or her duty. I think this is the same window that Ross picked Demelza up off the sick bed and took her to the window so she could see the sea. First Ross had to wipe the crud off the glass so she could see from it.
I have always thought the Prologue would have made an excellent first couple of scenes in a TV series. As it was, the initial two episodes were galloped through so quickly Im sure if I hadnt read the books I wouldnt have known what was going on.
of course these days, viewers are thought not to have much attention span so it must all lurch from frantic action to high drama. A gentle few scenes, where some of the characters are introduced; Choake, Charles, Jud and Prudie, Joshua lying in his bed fretting about what he had let lapse; maybe even Elizabeth reading a letter from Ross and a cut to Ross in uniform, preparing to leave New York, would have perfectly set the scene. You can probably tell I have no experience in TV and hardly ever watch it...
it is wonderful to picture all the Poldark scenes in ones mind!
Mrs G - I too have thought the prologue is wonderfully informative. It is a great pity it has not featured in either of the productions. Those who haven't read the books would then have known why Charles rushed ahead with the marriage between Francis and Elizabeth and the something of the relationship between Charles and Joshua. There is also a detailed description of Nampara there too which does not appear elsewhere in the books.
I have always thought the Prologue would have made an excellent first couple of scenes in a TV series. As it was, the initial two episodes were galloped through so quickly Im sure if I hadnt read the books I wouldnt have known what was going on.
of course these days, viewers are thought not to have much attention span so it must all lurch from frantic action to high drama. A gentle few scenes, where some of the characters are introduced; Choake, Charles, Jud and Prudie, Joshua lying in his bed fretting about what he had let lapse; maybe even Elizabeth reading a letter from Ross and a cut to Ross in uniform, preparing to leave New York, would have perfectly set the scene. You can probably tell I have no experience in TV and hardly ever watch it...
it is wonderful to picture all the Poldark scenes in ones mind!
Funny you should bring this up. I was browsing through the first book and came across the prologue. I made a note to read it again since I am now more familiar with the stories it would make more sense than it did on the first read. Must reread it.
Charles knew that Ross was alive because when he visited Joshua, in the Prologue, Joshua mentions a letter saying Ross is likely to be home before long. That was why Charles was so shifty in his haste to get Francis and Elizabeth married off.
I think the Paynters were entirely responsible for any rumour that may have done the rounds. They thought and hoped a life of gin sodden laziness was before them, since no-one was much bothered about Nampara at the time. Jud was actually very devious. He let drop all sorts of things that decent folk would have kept to themselves.
Little did Jud know how Ross had changed and immediately saw through his cunning, his excuses and his devious ways. Jud soon discovered his mistake...
How was Verity informed of Ross being killed in America? Interesting, if anyone would have hope that he was still alive I believe it would be her.
Dave-shortly after Ross returns home from America, Verity visits him. In an attempt to comfort Ross, Verity tries to explain Francis and Elizabeth's involvement. She implies that one of the contributing factors might have been the rumor of his death. Here is Verity's statement:
"And then" said Verity, "there was the rumour of your having been killed. I do not know how it came about but I think it was the Paynters who stood most to gain."Ross Poldark, Chpt. 5, p48.
Elizabeth later says she never believed the rumor. Hope this helps.
Hollyhock - regarding the gossip about Valentine's parentage, I've always wondered: since there was similar gossip concerning Ben Carter, would Ross's reaction to it be the same in both cases? Would people notice?
Good question about the appropriateness of Hugh's groom as chaperone - I too would like to know!
Interesting. I don't think Ross's reactions would have been the same. In Benjy's case, Ross knew the gossip was baseless and was mainly concerned for Jinny, who was just devastated. I always wondered if Jud, who knew better, started that malicious rumor. I think Polly Choake picked it up and passed it on to her husband, who helped spread it around. Jud was a spiteful rumormonger who had always been a little jealous of Jim Carter. Like Verity, I believe it was he who started the rumor that Ross had been killed in America.
On the other hand, the gossip about Valentine caused Ross a great deal of distress because of the possibility of its being true, especially because of George's abuse of Valentine.
Stella Poldark wrote:From my first read of 'The Four Swans' and 'The Angry Tide' I have thought that Demelza got away with her infidelity as far as Ross was concerned. Ross did not question her very much about Hugh and when he did it was to advise her and alert her to what he could see happening if she was not fully aware of Hugh's intention. He also shared his feelings with her about what was going on between them but he did not threaten to leave her. Also, he made no attempt to lie to Demelza about May 9th. Demelza almost left Ross after May 9th and before that was distant and cold towards him, making no attempt to try to heal their relationship. It seemed to me that WG had more sympathy for Demelza than he did for Ross. I think that WG excused Demelza some of her faults but was happy to expose Ross's.
Stella, have you forgotten who was the inspiration of Demelza? Mrs. WG. And with whom did he hash out the books when he was writing them? Mrs. WG again. And who was the inspiration of Ross? A wounded RAF pilot WG saw once. Of course Demelza will always come out on top.
(I like to think of the Poldark books as a 12-volume love letter. I also like to think Elizabeth and the Teague daughters were inspired by a pack of mean girls he knew when he was a teenager.)
Dark Mare - Of course I haven't forgotten that the character of Demelza was inspired by Jean Graham but I do not think it is sufficient to assume things on this basis so I brought in evidence from the book.
Stella Poldark wrote:From my first read of 'The Four Swans' and 'The Angry Tide' I have thought that Demelza got away with her infidelity as far as Ross was concerned. Ross did not question her very much about Hugh and when he did it was to advise her and alert her to what he could see happening if she was not fully aware of Hugh's intention. He also shared his feelings with her about what was going on between them but he did not threaten to leave her. Also, he made no attempt to lie to Demelza about May 9th. Demelza almost left Ross after May 9th and before that was distant and cold towards him, making no attempt to try to heal their relationship. It seemed to me that WG had more sympathy for Demelza than he did for Ross. I think that WG excused Demelza some of her faults but was happy to expose Ross's.
Stella, have you forgotten who was the inspiration of Demelza? Mrs. WG. And with whom did he hash out the books when he was writing them? Mrs. WG again. And who was the inspiration of Ross? A wounded RAF pilot WG saw once. Of course Demelza will always come out on top.
(I like to think of the Poldark books as a 12-volume love letter. I also like to think Elizabeth and the Teague daughters were inspired by a pack of mean girls he knew when he was a teenager.)
Hollyhock - regarding the gossip about Valentine's parentage, I've always wondered: since there was similar gossip concerning Ben Carter, would Ross's reaction to it be the same in both cases? Would people notice?
Good question about the appropriateness of Hugh's groom as chaperone - I too would like to know!
Boy, you all sure hit a part of the story that I have given much thought to. Part of that was how secret was Demelza and Hugh's infatuation. One point I always wondered was the scene when they left the groom on the shore and went off in the boat unchaperoned. Now don't servants gossip among themselves to other servants. This groom would be no exception. However, he was from Falmouth's home (can't remember its name) which was some distance from Nampara and the other nearby homes so the locals may not be in on it. Didn't L. Falmouth have a gleam in his eye towards Demelza?
We could and maybe should make a separate topic on this whole affair. I am sure there would be many comments about the whole Hugh the Seducer and Demelza affair.
In the film series, Prudies role in assisting Demelza was a big joke. What was D.H. thinking about when writing those scenes. I and I believe most of us readers of the books know that Demelza has a strong will and can make up her mind without assistance from another woman. Oh, I know it all about the modern feminists "Sisterhood" how silly.
Ross actions are certainly more written about. Is that because of his internal dialogue and over critical analysis of his own actions? I cannot think of anyone, apart from Demelza, who knew about Ross' visit to Trenwith on May 9th. So far as I remember the only person to wonder how often Ross visited the house was George, when Agatha had had her say. He had no knowledge, just suspicion, and George Tabb couldn't help him. Can you remind me who was aware of it, Hollyhock?
As for Demelza, when she went off to the boat on that fateful June day, she and Hugh were accompanied by a groom. Perfectly proper, if a little unusual. No-one would have known he did nothing but hang about waiting for their return.
I am not sure Demelza's behaviour would have been that obvious. Was she the swooning sort? Caroline of course noticed her attraction for Hugh and his for Demelza, but since they met only a few times - five I believe, over a couple of years - before R&D were summoned to his sick bed, it would not have been sufficient to provoke gossip and rumour, especially amongst those personages who were guests of Falmouth and Bassett. The tittle-tattling Polly Choakes and Mrs Teagues of the neighbourhood would never have been noticed by such men.
What do others think?
From my first read of 'The Four Swans' and 'The Angry Tide' I have thought that Demelza got away with her infidelity as far as Ross was concerned. Ross did not question her very much about Hugh and when he did it was to advise her and alert her to what he could see happening if she was not fully aware of Hugh's intention. He also shared his feelings with her about what was going on between them but he did not threaten to leave her. Also, he made no attempt to lie to Demelza about May 9th. Demelza almost left Ross after May 9th and before that was distant and cold towards him, making no attempt to try to heal their relationship. It seemed to me that WG had more sympathy for Demelza than he did for Ross. I think that WG excused Demelza some of her faults but was happy to expose Ross's.
Mrs Gimlett, in this case could the groom be considered a proper 'chaperone' since he had no connection to Ross and owed his allegiance to Armitage? But I agree that most of the onlookers would not have made a distinction; that's why I didn't mention the groom earlier. I also agree that my assertion that people 'found out' is too strong a claim for the May 9th incident. I made a giant leap and tied that event to the later widespread gossip about Valentine's parentage.
However, I do think your observant husband, John, suspected Ross's destination that night, and more than likely would have been aware that he didn't return until the next morning. He would not have found that immediately significant, but how long did John wait up to take care of Darkie? And certainly both Jane and John--that name combo always makes me smile--were aware of the sudden change in R&D's relationship. I've often wondered what the Gimletts whispered to each other. But of course, neither would ever have breathed a word to anyone else. I agree with our Ross, a Gimlett scene would have been very interesting here. It would have been the perfect antithesis to a Jud and Prudy scene. I don't think the Gimletts ever shared a personal exchange of any type.
I also think that perceptive Dwight suspected and disapproved of Hugh's pursuit of Demelza. I admit I'm reading between the lines (maybe even hoping), but I think Dwight's regard for Hugh chilled after he became suspicious of his romantic interests in Demelza. Dwight, of course, was the soul of discretion.
In defense of my claim that Demelza swooned over Hugh, he did make her wobbly in the knees, like the time he brought her the magnolia tree and she had to lean on Ross for support after Hugh mooned over her. Granted only Ross saw that.
Ha! This could be just another case in point on the good servants (Gimletts) vs the bad ones (Bartle?). It might also go some way towards explaining the scarcity of scenes involving the Gimletts...
I know this probably doesn't explain even half of the story, but I couldn't resist tying it back to the previous posts
Also, by the above criterion, Hugh's footman would also have made a pretty good servant.
PS I haven't seen Mrs Gimlett's post before I wrote this, and obviously she's right: it's Tabb, not Bartle - and groom, not footman.
-- Edited by Blackleburr on Tuesday 18th of September 2018 07:35:21 PM
Ross actions are certainly more written about. Is that because of his internal dialogue and over critical analysis of his own actions? I cannot think of anyone, apart from Demelza, who knew about Ross' visit to Trenwith on May 9th. So far as I remember the only person to wonder how often Ross visited the house was George, when Agatha had had her say. He had no knowledge, just suspicion, and George Tabb couldn't help him. Can you remind me who was aware of it, Hollyhock?
As for Demelza, when she went off to the boat on that fateful June day, she and Hugh were accompanied by a groom. Perfectly proper, if a little unusual. No-one would have known he did nothing but hang about waiting for their return.
I am not sure Demelza's behaviour would have been that obvious. Was she the swooning sort? Caroline of course noticed her attraction for Hugh and his for Demelza, but since they met only a few times - five I believe, over a couple of years - before R&D were summoned to his sick bed, it would not have been sufficient to provoke gossip and rumour, especially amongst those personages who were guests of Falmouth and Bassett. The tittle-tattling Polly Choakes and Mrs Teagues of the neighbourhood would never have been noticed by such men.
I've always felt that WG treated R&D's extramarital affairs unequally. Ross was always under the microscope. No matter if was from Jud's exaggerations about Ross and Elizabeth's cemetery encounter, Ross's reaction to Elizabeth's bombshell at the Trevaunance dinner, his actions were widely known and even more widely gossiped about. The most obvious example is his May 9th visit to Trenwith--at night. People found out, whether by osmosis or by some strange magic is a mystery that WG never shares.
On the other hand, no one seems to find it gossip worthy that Demelza swoons at the mere mention of Hugh Armitage's name, that when he turns his viper eyes on her she is hypnotized and must obey, that she over-indulges and behaves unladylike with him at a very high society party. But most surprising is that no one finds it gossip worthy that she, a married woman, goes tripping off with a strange man in defiance of all customs of the time. Not a bal maiden (they were practically on the Nampara lawn), not a miner late for his core, not a farmer scything, not a goatherd on the cliffs, not a fisherman, not even a seal or sea bird finds this gossip worthy, or even odd. Ross's actions are open and critiqued by the world. I think WG shows his partiality for Demelza by keeping her most shocking actions improbably secret and thereby not open to gossip.
George is not the only person mentioned as using the various types of lavatory in the books.
Very early on, when Ross is in the stable hoping to finish off Reuben Clemmow, Jud tramps out to the earth closet and some while later, returns to the house.
When the election takes place at the end of The Four Swans, Nat Pearce is described as having been up all night, his daughter constantly having to help him to the close stool.
I think the 'chaise percee' is mentioned simply because it has replaced the stinking arrangements Demelza dreaded when she visited at Christmas. George has been making improvements and WG emphasises this in small ways.
As Ross himself says, we all function in the same way, were all born in the same way and folk in the Georgian Age delighted in discussing every detail of their lives. WG only mentions George's arrangements, almost as an aside - there are no graphic details (thank goodness).
It has always seemed to me that Ross had the best solution. Much healthier, he says, to have an earth closet away from the house. I guess they burned all the rubbish they could and thanks to John and Jane G, kept the place as neat and tidy (and fresh smelling) as possible, bearing in mind the mine workings were so close.
Interesting too, that for those people who these days live in isolation and far away from sewers, the earth closet is very often the facility of choice, although it's now known as a composting toilet.
-- Edited by Mrs Gimlett on Tuesday 18th of September 2018 09:46:39 AM
I don't believe WG purposely made George any worse than he already was. George was a fastidious person, about his clothes, he took a fixer-upper Trenwith and well he fixed it up the landscape and all, he had a splendid livery that Francis commented sarcastically on it with Geoffrey Charles and he had possession of the most beautiful women in the neighborhood, his wife Elizabeth. So it is only fitting that he should have probably the first pot de chambre that was built into the chair. It changes the hit or miss use of an ordinary chamber pot more into one that was more predictable.
Dave - agreed, but:
My issue wasn't with the fact that George is described as having the new gizmo installed - in fact, there are several other instances across the books where sanitary arrangements in a number of places are discussed, e.g.: Trenwith (when Demelza first comes to visit), Nampara (when Caroline is about to visit for the first time), Mrs Parkins's rooms in London (again when Demelza first visits). What bothers me is that George is the only person whom we get to see using the facility - I think it singles him out unfairly for ridicule, when clearly it was something everyone had to do, whatever the arrangements they had in place.
Regarding the Gimletts - I think the jazz band comparison is spot on!
Yes, I believe good servants were like a rhythm section in a good jazz band. Felt but not heard. Jane and John, therefore, were only occasionally mentioned, always in a good way. John was always there to make sure the horses were ready when needed and put in the stable when not needed. Ross bought John a new necktie and was pleased that he washed the window in the upstairs bedroom. Jane was a big help to Demelza in the kitchen and with the children. I think Ross appreciated their work and contribution to making his household orderly.
Finally, WG had enough characters to write about, couldn't handle much more.
I don't believe WG purposely made George any worse than he already was. George was a fastidious person, about his clothes, he took a fixer-upper Trenwith and well he fixed it up the landscape and all, he had a splendid livery that Francis commented sarcastically on it with Geoffrey Charles and he had possession of the most beautiful women in the neighborhood, his wife Elizabeth. So it is only fitting that he should have probably the first pot de chambre that was built into the chair. It changes the hit or miss use of an ordinary chamber pot more into one that was more predictable.
I can't find it in the novel but I believe WG used the French word for this piece of furniture.
There may be only occasional mentions of John and Jane Gimlett, Ross, but they are always there. Without them, the life at Nampara would have ground to a halt. They worked tirelessly for Ross and Demelza, sometimes without pay, keeping everything running smoothly. The complete antithesis of Jud and Prudie.
They were a devoted couple, devoted to their employers. Much under-rated. I would say that, wouldn't I?
Mrs G
I would like to add to this. To my mind the Gimletts brought calm to Nampara. They were always there yet unobtrusive and anticipating the family's needs especially at times of stress. Mrs G - you are right about them being much under-rated. Their absence in the BBC series was a mistake and a great pity.
There may be only occasional mentions of John and Jane Gimlett, Ross, but they are always there. Without them, the life at Nampara would have ground to a halt. They worked tirelessly for Ross and Demelza, sometimes without pay, keeping everything running smoothly. The complete antithesis of Jud and Prudie.
They were a devoted couple, devoted to their employers. Much under-rated. I would say that, wouldn't I?
I have decided that one of the things I love about the Poldark books is that WG seems to genuinely like the characters he's writing about (well, most of them, anyway).
It is a bit jarring [not charring, sorry!], then, when every once in a while you come across a scene where one of the characters seems to be getting an unfair treatment from the author. One particular example I have in mind is the scene in The Black Moon when George Warleggan finds out upon his return after the winter in Truro that the Trenwith pond is again full of toads. Specifically, George wakes early on his first day back, gets out of bed, uses the toilet, and then is distracted from washing his hands by the toads' creaking. When I read this, I thought: really? Must George - in addition to all his faults - be the only person across the books whom we get to see in the toilet? It definitely didn't seem a fair punch, even to George.
I wonder, do you have any other scenes that made you feel a character was being treated unfairly by WG?
-- Edited by Blackleburr on Saturday 15th of September 2018 11:21:30 PM
-- Edited by Blackleburr on Sunday 16th of September 2018 10:19:38 AM
