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Post Info TOPIC: Series 4 Episode 3


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Date: Jul 17 12:43 PM, 2018
RE: Series 4 Episode 3
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Fijane wrote:
I totally agree that Demelza being "nasty", to me, just comes across as awful. In my comment about Demelza being a "heroine", I was referring back to the way that many viewers felt in the second series - that suddenly Demelza had become the centre of the show, and a feminist icon. When that vibe seemed to be coming from some of the audience (not the book lovers, I am sure) they started to play that up, and took it way too far. From the end of Series 2 and through the third, DH seemed to decide that Demelza was too passive after the May 9th incident, and that she had to act more like a modern young woman would act when her husband slept with another. For me, that was the point the show went off course, because Demelza was, in reality, an 18th century woman, and how she is written in the books is more true to the era than how they took her in the show. She became unrealistic, a modern woman dressing up in period costume. I didn't like it, so I don't consider her a "heroine" in the feminist sense. In fact, I believe her attitude and actions in the books were what saved her marriage, where many modern marriages are destroyed by "heroic" and "strong" women.

 In fairness, I don't think we can call Demelza a typical 18th century woman. Her mother was dead by the time she was 8 years old. Her father was mostly absent, working and drinking before coming home to beat whichever kids he could catch before collapsing into bed. She seldom left the cottage because she had babies and toddlers to mind and a house to tend and food to cook. Her contact with the outside world was minimal, and her family was not terribly verbal, according to "Ross Poldark." She did not go to school. Her outside contacts were her mother's friend Meggy Dawes, a midwife and witch(?), and her future stepmother, Nellie, who mostly kept an eye on her when she ventured into her shop, presumably to make sure she didn't steal anything. Then Ross took her to Nampara, where she was turned over to Prudie, another woman who was a bit of an outsider. Until Mrs. Zacky, what normal wife and mother did she have contact with after her mother died? As far as being a woman is concerned, Demelza essentially invented herself. She grew up in a house of men and boys. Her first teacher was Ross, a man. She has more in common with Pippi Longstocking than the Bennet girls, Catherine Earnshaw or Jane Eyre. 



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Date: Jul 16 9:13 AM, 2018
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Blackleburr wrote:

 

However, my reaction to how these provoked responses play out on screen is different. To me, when Demelza acts/talks "nasty" - it just makes her nasty, not a heroine. And while this seems to be a deviation from the books - maybe it's not entirely so. In fact, many people feel that the book Demelza is acting "out of character" in the Hugh Armitage storyline - so perhaps the series is trying to bring her character in line with her actions?
 

 

I totally agree that Demelza being "nasty", to me, just comes across as awful. In my comment about Demelza being a "heroine", I was referring back to the way that many viewers felt in the second series - that suddenly Demelza had become the centre of the show, and a feminist icon. When that vibe seemed to be coming from some of the audience (not the book lovers, I am sure) they started to play that up, and took it way too far. From the end of Series 2 and through the third, DH seemed to decide that Demelza was too passive after the May 9th incident, and that she had to act more like a modern young woman would act when her husband slept with another. For me, that was the point the show went off course, because Demelza was, in reality, an 18th century woman, and how she is written in the books is more true to the era than how they took her in the show. She became unrealistic, a modern woman dressing up in period costume. I didn't like it, so I don't consider her a "heroine" in the feminist sense. In fact, I believe her attitude and actions in the books were what saved her marriage, where many modern marriages are destroyed by "heroic" and "strong" women.



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Date: Jul 12 9:24 PM, 2018
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Thanks for answering my question, Fijane I agree with your observation that when R&D's thoughts are verbalized on screen, it creates a completely different dynamic than if they were left unsaid. I remember Debbie Horsfield saying in one of her early interviews that this was one of the main challenges in adapting the books.

 

However, my reaction to how these provoked responses play out on screen is different. To me, when Demelza acts/talks "nasty" - it just makes her nasty, not a heroine. And while this seems to be a deviation from the books - maybe it's not entirely so. In fact, many people feel that the book Demelza is acting "out of character" in the Hugh Armitage storyline - so perhaps the series is trying to bring her character in line with her actions?
 
Also, I see what you mean about Ross's tender impulses being left out in the series - even though to me it quite often feels like they are only being postponed until a later scene. Overall, I don't think it takes away from his thoughtfulness. I actually find it a nice detail that shows Ross as a single-tasker, like your typical man, who may appear brusque when in fact he is just preoccupied with some other task, and only moves on to his "tender mode" once that first task is finished.
 
And finally, about that scene where Ross brings up Hugh when Demelza is crying over Sarah's death - I was much more baffled when Demelza claimed to be weeping for Julia after Hugh died in episode 2. I thought this was a horribly nasty thing to say, and I can understand why Ross would be tempted to revisit the subject when he did.


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Date: Jul 12 2:44 AM, 2018
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Dark Mare wrote:
Fijane wrote:
I looked at that section in the book again, and I see what you mean about the line being clunky. However, I think the power of that line is that it is in saying that, that Demelza finally breaks down ("sobbing") and turns to Ross for comfort. It seems to me that it breaks down the wall between them, whereas the omission of the line in the show means that Ross and Demelza still have the wall there. And a couple of episodes on, we can see why, as DH seems determined to prolong Hugh's influence for a very, very long time.

 I don't think Debbie Horsfield had a choice because the scene that ended "The Four Swans" is in the first half of Series 4, and she had to make a transition to "The Angry Tide," where Ross is angry about Armitage again. WG could let the wall between Ross and Demelza come down to give his readers the promise of a happy ending and then take it back in the next book because there was a year between the releases of "The Four Swans" and "The Angry Tide." Readers could accept that Ross could get angry again as he spent all those months alone in London because he didn't have Demelza around to remind him just how much he loved her. For the series there was one week between the scene in which Demelza returns from Killewarren after learning of Hugh's death and the one in which Ross returns from London. Viewers would have found the change in attitude harder to accept than readers did because so little time had passed. Also DH abbreviated his unpleasantness upon his return to Cornwall. Winston Graham let him go on and on trying to provoke Demelza, and when he finally succeeded in making her cry, he dismissed the rude remark that brought the tears as a joke. 

I think she is prolonging Hugh's influence because she is making greater use of Monk Adderley than WG did. It is an interesting choice because it is never established in the book how well Caroline actually knows Adderley when she is advising Demelza to treat everything he says as a joke -- disastrous advice as it turns out. The series is creating the impression that she knows him pretty well. (Indeed, Episode 5 had me fleetingly wondering whether Ross was going to duel with Adderley over Caroline rather than Demelza.) Caroline's theory that Ross accepted Adderley's challenge because he couldn't fight Hugh needs Hugh to still be very much in the picture for Ross at least.



-- Edited by Dark Mare on Tuesday 10th of July 2018 08:40:23 AM


Good points, Dark Mare. Having not yet seen Ep 5, I don't yet have perspective on how Monk will be used, but certainly Hugh is the main reason for all those events (in the book). Somehow, the books manage to make the reader feel that R & D have regained a lot of ground, without constantly referring to Hugh. We do hear Ross's thoughts about fighting the shadow, and I think that DH has had a struggle to convey what is straightforward in the book, onto the screen. And in her struggle, she has had to make R & D verbalise their thoughts, and therefore provoke a reaction from the other. I really, really disliked Ross raising Hugh again when D was crying over Sarah's death, and it immediately made D react in a nasty way (reminiscent of Series 3). If Ross could have just kept that thought in his head (impossible to portray on screen) the scene would have been so much more poignant.

Blackleburr, I agree with your analysis completely. It just shows what is lost when the later parts of a section are left out when shown on screen. Unfortunately, what is lost is usually Ross's tender nature, consistent with DH's clear intent to shown Demelza as the heroine and Ross as the thoughtless clod.



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Dark Mare wrote:

As for absence of the line "Oh, they are all yours.," I noticed that it was missing, but I thought it was a good call because the line has always struck me as a clunker.


This is just me being curious, but would you mind explaining what it is that you find clunky about this line?

As for me, I'm not quite sure how to read this part of Ross and Demelza's conversation. My best guess is that in the preceding line ("Set some tears aside for me, for I believe I need them.") Ross is fundamentally asking Demelza for reassurance that she still loves him, and to recognize that his feelings have been hurt. Demelza appears to make an effort to give him what he's asking for, but I don't think she quite gets there (at least, not verbally - I think Fijane is right that Demelza's action in this scene speaks louder than her words). Incidentally, a similar thing also happens at the very end of this scene when Demelza tells Ross he can have something to eat after she has finished reading to Clowance, but he says he'd prefer to go read with her/them - as if for a time Demelza had lost her ability to "read his [mind] before he knew it himself". Still, in both cases Ross seems to appreciate her effort and tries to make the best of of the answer he got. So perhaps this was all meant to show that while the will to stay together and repair their relationship was there, they still had a long way to go before the healing process was complete?



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Fijane wrote:
I looked at that section in the book again, and I see what you mean about the line being clunky. However, I think the power of that line is that it is in saying that, that Demelza finally breaks down ("sobbing") and turns to Ross for comfort. It seems to me that it breaks down the wall between them, whereas the omission of the line in the show means that Ross and Demelza still have the wall there. And a couple of episodes on, we can see why, as DH seems determined to prolong Hugh's influence for a very, very long time.

 I don't think Debbie Horsfield had a choice because the scene that ended "The Four Swans" is in the first half of Series 4, and she had to make a transition to "The Angry Tide," where Ross is angry about Armitage again. WG could let the wall between Ross and Demelza come down to give his readers the promise of a happy ending and then take it back in the next book because there was a year between the releases of "The Four Swans" and "The Angry Tide." Readers could accept that Ross could get angry again as he spent all those months alone in London because he didn't have Demelza around to remind him just how much he loved her. For the series there was one week between the scene in which Demelza returns from Killewarren after learning of Hugh's death and the one in which Ross returns from London. Viewers would have found the change in attitude harder to accept than readers did because so little time had passed. Also DH abbreviated his unpleasantness upon his return to Cornwall. Winston Graham let him go on and on trying to provoke Demelza, and when he finally succeeded in making her cry, he dismissed the rude remark that brought the tears as a joke. 

I think she is prolonging Hugh's influence because she is making greater use of Monk Adderley than WG did. It is an interesting choice because it is never established in the book how well Caroline actually knows Adderley when she is advising Demelza to treat everything he says as a joke -- disastrous advice as it turns out. The series is creating the impression that she knows him pretty well. (Indeed, Episode 5 had me fleetingly wondering whether Ross was going to duel with Adderley over Caroline rather than Demelza.) Caroline's theory that Ross accepted Adderley's challenge because he couldn't fight Hugh needs Hugh to still be very much in the picture for Ross at least.



-- Edited by Dark Mare on Tuesday 10th of July 2018 08:40:23 AM

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Dark Mare wrote:

I agree about the abundance of too-short scenes. As for absence of the line "Oh, they are all yours.," I noticed that it was missing, but I thought it was a good call because the line has always struck me as a clunker. I was surprised that Debbie Horsfield didn't come up with one that expressed the sentiment without being illogical. Yes, I know Ross would have looked beyond the words and recognized her meaning, but it is easier to present that on the page than on the screen. 


I looked at that section in the book again, and I see what you mean about the line being clunky. However, I think the power of that line is that it is in saying that, that Demelza finally breaks down ("sobbing") and turns to Ross for comfort. It seems to me that it breaks down the wall between them, whereas the omission of the line in the show means that Ross and Demelza still have the wall there. And a couple of episodes on, we can see why, as DH seems determined to prolong Hugh's influence for a very, very long time.



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Blackleburr wrote:

I think I would prefer longer scenes, too - but apparently in the series this is saved for only a few of them that are meant to stand out.

It's a bit of a shame, too - because at times the quick interspersing of two scenes worked brilliantly (e.g. the corn fundraising and dowry negotiations between George and Ossie in Series 3), but it can become too much when it is used over and over again.


I completely agree. I think part of the problem is the technique worked too well the first time, and it was impossible to top it. The two scenes being interspersed were so similar, and the director was willing to include each of Ossie's entrances. Even the sounds made by his feet crossing the floor were funny.



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I think I would prefer longer scenes, too - but apparently in the series this is saved for only a few of them that are meant to stand out.

It's a bit of a shame, too - because at times the quick interspersing of two scenes worked brilliantly (e.g. the corn fundraising and dowry negotiations between George and Ossie in Series 3), but it can become too much when it is used over and over again.



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I agree about the abundance of too-short scenes. As for absence of the line "Oh, they are all yours.," I noticed that it was missing, but I thought it was a good call because the line has always struck me as a clunker. I was surprised that Debbie Horsfield didn't come up with one that expressed the sentiment without being illogical. Yes, I know Ross would have looked beyond the words and recognized her meaning, but it is easier to present that on the page than on the screen. 



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Fijane wrote:

I liked this episode more than most since the infamous Demelza-punching-Ross-episode that started the slide in D's character.

I felt this episode was quite true to the books in most cases (if you can ignore the silly fight on the beach scene). Many of the future storylines were set up or foreshadowed here - Dwight's fear about Sarah, the governess for John Conan, George's elation that things finally seem to be going right for him (and Elizabeth reflecting that feeling), Notary Pearce's revelations to Osborne, introducing Demelza's matchmaking between Drake and Rosina. All of these things are important in what is to come, and I thought they did a good job introducing all these threads. Of course, in true Poldark (tv series) style, everything was squashed into short time frames.

A few things I didn't like:

- it is starting to irritate me that so many scenes have a single sentence. I would like to see some conversations fleshed out in a continuous scene, not broken by cutting in and out of other scenes.

- while Demelza is much, much better, it feels like she has been brought from "nasty" to "neutral" rather than "nice", the real Demelza. So often, in the important conversations with Ross, it feels like a line of hers has been omitted when she should say something to repair the relationship. Instead she stands mute, waiting for Ross to make his next plea. I really missed that in Ep 2 when she talks about all the tears for everyone, and Ross says "save some for me, for I think I need them." For some inexplicable reason they omitted one the best lines of the book "Oh, they are all yours". Instead again she is mute.

- they overdid the discomfort between the villagers and Ross when he returns from London. I didn't mind that, but the time given to that probably pushed out some other more worthy scenes.

But overall, a very good episode. Lovely to see the children, although Clowance aged about three years in six months. Lovely to see Verity again, and I think that was a good idea, as filling her in on all the news allowed the viewer to catch up on lots of little details. Still don't understand why they moved Verity to Lisbon instead of Falmouth - pointless, as both places were well away from the action.


 Fijane - Health and safety rules did not allow the fishing scene so I think the fight on the beach was another way of showing Ross re-bonding with his friends. It occurred to me that the fight might also have provided Ross with an outlet for some of his anger towards Hugh.

I feel the same as you about the omission of the line "Oh, they are all yours." The intention seems to be to keep Ross and Demelza stuck with the consequences of Demelza's relationship with Hugh for as long as possible.

Overall, so far I think series 4 is a significant improvement over series 3 but it would be difficult to think of anything worse than series 3.

 



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I liked this episode more than most since the infamous Demelza-punching-Ross-episode that started the slide in D's character.

I felt this episode was quite true to the books in most cases (if you can ignore the silly fight on the beach scene). Many of the future storylines were set up or foreshadowed here - Dwight's fear about Sarah, the governess for John Conan, George's elation that things finally seem to be going right for him (and Elizabeth reflecting that feeling), Notary Pearce's revelations to Osborne, introducing Demelza's matchmaking between Drake and Rosina. All of these things are important in what is to come, and I thought they did a good job introducing all these threads. Of course, in true Poldark (tv series) style, everything was squashed into short time frames.

A few things I didn't like:

- it is starting to irritate me that so many scenes have a single sentence. I would like to see some conversations fleshed out in a continuous scene, not broken by cutting in and out of other scenes.

- while Demelza is much, much better, it feels like she has been brought from "nasty" to "neutral" rather than "nice", the real Demelza. So often, in the important conversations with Ross, it feels like a line of hers has been omitted when she should say something to repair the relationship. Instead she stands mute, waiting for Ross to make his next plea. I really missed that in Ep 2 when she talks about all the tears for everyone, and Ross says "save some for me, for I think I need them." For some inexplicable reason they omitted one the best lines of the book "Oh, they are all yours". Instead again she is mute.

- they overdid the discomfort between the villagers and Ross when he returns from London. I didn't mind that, but the time given to that probably pushed out some other more worthy scenes.

But overall, a very good episode. Lovely to see the children, although Clowance aged about three years in six months. Lovely to see Verity again, and I think that was a good idea, as filling her in on all the news allowed the viewer to catch up on lots of little details. Still don't understand why they moved Verity to Lisbon instead of Falmouth - pointless, as both places were well away from the action.



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Typical, indeed I also find it very fitting that the book in which the vellow story is told is no other than "The Angry Tide". It parallels nicely the theme of Ross struggling against the current of his angry feelings explored throughout that book.

And finally, I'd like to add a short postscript to the linguistic discussion we had below. It turns out that Wiktionary has another entry which ties up even better with the origins of "vellow" suggested by Stella's Cornish contact: vella (Icelandic, from Old Norse: vella, from Proto-Germanic: wellana, wallana) - (1) to bubble, to boil, to simmer; (2) to flow, to well up, to stream. To me, Old Norse seems a more plausible influence than Latin on the Cornish language.



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Brackleburr

It seems we now have a very comprehensive description of a vellow or rip current. I find them fascinating but would not want to encounter one. A lifeguard told me that they are not confined to Cornwall but can occur in other areas.

Ross seemed to have no fear of it, identifying almost instantly what it was although he didn't respond in the way one is supposed to. He wanted to keep hold of the net to prove to the other men that he had not "grown soft, living in London. However much he might claim he was in a vellow, there might be one or two who would consider Captain Poldark had gotten a bit short of wind and decided to give up his netting while he could." Typical Ross smile 

 

 



-- Edited by Stella Poldark on Wednesday 4th of July 2018 10:51:26 AM

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Stella,

I'm hopeless at swimming and if I ever got caught in a vellow I'm sure I would be frightened to death before I could even start drowning in it... and the word appears to be no less trouble than the thing itself

As I went back to check my definitions properly, I found out that the "rip tide" (first mentioned by Dave below) and the "rip current" (mentioned by Ross) are two different things - the main differences being that rip tides are predictable and always flow along with the tide (i.e. either away from the shore or towards it), whereas rip currents occur somewhat randomly, are unrelated to the tide and only flow away from the shore. The way the rip current is described on Wikipedia fits the vellow's description you quoted from TAT very well [I put the corresponding parts of WG's text in brackets in blue at the end of each paragraph]:

A rip current, often simply called a rip, or by the misnomer rip tide, is a specific kind of water current which can occur near beaches with breaking waves. Rip currents can be hazardous to people in the water. Swimmers who are caught in a rip and who do not understand what is going on, and who may not have the necessary water skills, may panic, or exhaust themselves by trying to swim directly against the flow of water. [WG writes: To a stranger they are fatal, for he tries to swim towards the shore, exhausts himself and is carried away and drowned.]

A rip current forms because wind and breaking waves push surface water towards the land, and this causes a slight rise in the water level along the shore. This excess water will tend to flow back to the open water via the route of least resistance. When there is a local area which is slightly deeper, or a break in an offshore sand bar or reef, this can allow water to flow offshore more easily, and this will initiate a rip current through that gap. [WG writes: ... caused by and causing shallow declivities in the sand ...]

Water that has been pushed up near the beach flows along the shore towards the outgoing rip as "feeder currents", and then the excess water flows out at a right angle to the beach, in a tight current called the "neck" of the rip. The "neck" is where the flow is most rapid. When the water in the rip current reaches outside of the lines of breaking waves, the flow disperses sideways, loses power, and dissipates in what is known as the "head" of the rip.

The location of rip currents can be difficult to predict; whereas some tend to recur always in the same places, others can appear and disappear suddenly at various locations along the beach. The appearance and disappearance of rip currents is dependent on the bottom topography and the exact direction that the surf and swells are coming in from. Although rip tide is a misnomer, in areas of significant tidal range, rip currents may only occur at certain stages of the tide, when the water is shallow enough to cause the waves to break over a sand bar, but deep enough for the broken wave to flow over the bar. [WG writes: A vellow is a strong current which develops here and there along the Cornish beaches at low tide.]

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rip_current

I didn't give too much thought to the prepositions when I suggested a connection between "rip current" and the Latin "vello" below - all I had in mind was that the meanings of "tearing" and "ripping" are similar. Also, I don't really know how likely it is (if at all) that the Cornish language would sport a Latin influence. Maybe some language expert here could help?

But to answer your question about the direction in which the vellow in TAT was flowing - I can see two options consistent with WGs description, which basically says the following: 

  1. Ross was trying to swim along the shore and in doing so, he had to struggle with the current,
  2. In the end he didn't make any significant progress in the direction he was swimming.

Option A: Ross was caught in what Wikipedia describes as the "neck" of the rip current, i.e. while he was trying to swim along the beach he was being carried out to the sea by the current. This explains (2), and doesn't seem much at odds with (1), as I imagine swimming across a current (as Ross would be doing in this case) must be a struggle anyway, even if it's not as exhausting as swimming straight against a current.

Option B: The vellow carried Ross along a curve (either L-shaped, or maybe C-shaped). This would fit Wikipedia's description of the "feeder", "neck" and "head" parts of a rip current, and include Option A above as well as Ross swimming straight against the current and/or along with the current for some time. This option (particularly with an L-shaped current) seems to fit slightly better Ross's memory of the vellow that caught him when he was a teen and carried him a couple miles down the beach.



-- Edited by Blackleburr on Wednesday 4th of July 2018 02:54:07 AM

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Blackleburr wrote:

I tried googling a few alternative spellings of "vellow", and found the following translation on Wiktionary: vello (Latin: first person form of vellere) - (1) I pluck out, (2) I depilate, (3) I pull/tear down, I demolish. Perhaps the third meaning is related to the "rip" in "rip tide"?


 Blacleburr

Here is how Winston Graham describes a vellow in TAT.

"He went on and then turned to swim parallel to the shore and as he did so found himself in a powerful current that wanted to take him the other way. He realized he was in a vellow.

A vellow is a strong current which develops here and there along the Cornish beaches at low tide, caused by and causing shallow declivities in the sand, and is irresistible when it takes hold. To a stranger they are fatal, for he tries to swim towards the shore, exhausts himself and is carried away and drowned. To a swimmer familiar with the beaches they are not dangerous, for he allows himself to go with them and then when their force begins to wane he swims out of them and comes ashore where they allow him.

As this current caught him and tried to bear him away Ross vividly remembered a time in March when he was sixteen or seventeen. He was down on the beach with his father and a few others on a cold and gusty night, and he had carried the net about as far out as he had on this occasion. An exceptionally strong vellow had caught him and, as was the custom, he had dropped the net and gone with the current. He had eventually come in more than two miles further up the beach and had had to walk back naked with the wind cutting at him and stinging his body with sand. When he at last arrived his father was standing by the tar barrel watching two men sorting fish from one of the nets, and all he said was: 'Well, boy, you've been a long time.'

 

So the correct thing, the only thing, to do on this occasion was unhitch the rest of the net, signal to Jud - if he happened to be watching - and go with the current till he felt it releasing him. But he was very fresh, not yet at all cold, and more than a trifle irritated by the obvious concern of such as Paul Daniel that he might have grown soft, living in London. However much he might claim he was in a vellow, there might be one or two who would consider Captain Poldark had gotten a bit short of wind and decided to give up his netting while he could.

 

So he began to swim against the current and did not release the net. He did not make for the shore but tried to carry out his original design of bringing in the end of the net near to where Paul Daniel would be waiting.

 

He soon realized that he was making no headway at all. But swimming hard up the beach he was about remaining in the same place. The part of the net he still held was pulling heavily on his shoulder. The waves, in the way they did in such a case, had got up, so that he could not raise his head far enough out of the water to see the figures on the shore. The current wanted to take him out. In fact it was taking him out whether he wanted to go or not. It depended very much on the size of the vellow as to how far he might be carried before he could return; but obstinately he would not drop the net. It seemed to him that if Jud held to his end there must be a limit to the extent of the drift.......

Suddenly he was in calm water. None too soon, for he was beginning to shiver. Very odd; it did not often happen this way, that one came out of a vellow while still struggling against it."

This does not suggest being pulled down but, rather, pulled sideways. What do you think? The advice is to let the vellow carry you until it is no longer there but Ross fought against it. I find it fascinating and frightening and wonder what my reaction would be if I ever encountered a vellow. 



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I tried googling a few alternative spellings of "vellow", and found the following translation on Wiktionary: vello (Latin: first person form of vellere) - (1) I pluck out, (2) I depilate, (3) I pull/tear down, I demolish. Perhaps the third meaning is related to the "rip" in "rip current"? (EDITED: I initially wrote "rip tide" here, but apparently they are not the same thing, so I'm switching to the term that I think is closer to "vellow".)



-- Edited by Blackleburr on Wednesday 4th of July 2018 12:03:57 AM

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Date: Jun 29 1:46 PM, 2018
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Dark Mare wrote:

I got curious and put the powers of the Internet on this question. No luck. The only reference to "vellow" I could find was a  Somerset hamlet called Vellow. I checked a map of southwest England to see whether Vellow is a coastal community, thinking maybe it had lent its name to riptides the same way the Santa Ana River Valley lends its name to the Santa Ana winds, those hot, dry winds off the desert that send temperature soaring and the humidity dropping in Southern California and can give us the infrequent but not impossible 80-degree Christmas Day. (Yuck!) No, Vellow is a few miles inland so that rules that out.

I started with my Kindle edition of "The Angry Tide" and used the define function on the word. The define function has three windows, one for the dictionary (Oxford English Dictionary is the one used for the Kindle edition of the Poldark books), which provided no definition; one for Wikipedia, which provided the information about Vellow; and one for translations, which was also blank. From there I went to cornishdictionary.org.uk, which had no results for "vellow" as either a Cornish word or an English word. Next I tried the Cornish Dialect Dictionary at Cornishpasty.com and got nada. Next stop, the 1880 book "Glossary of Words in Use in Cornwall." I struck out again.

Next idea, maybe it is an archaic English word. I tried johnsonsdictionaryonline.com (Samuel Johnson's A Dictionary of the English Language, 1755 edition). Then I tried the 1828 edition of Noah Webster's American Dictionary of the English Language  to cover the period from 1755 to 1828. No luck. 


 Dark Mare 

I consulted a contact I have in Cornwall who sent the following information.

"In the Dictionary of Cornish Sea Words by R Morton Nance (1963) there is an entry under vella.  The definition is  a pit in sand below water.  Nance also mentions that in T C Peters personal copy of the English Dialect Dictionary correcting his definition a whirlpool there printed.  Nance continues to say actually both definitions are correct to some extent.   

The word vella appears also in a typescript of Cornish Dialect words based on Nances work. 

 

It's amazing what you can find out by asking the right person wink

 



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Date: Jun 29 10:10 AM, 2018
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I got curious and put the powers of the Internet on this question. No luck. The only reference to "vellow" I could find was a  Somerset hamlet called Vellow. I checked a map of southwest England to see whether Vellow is a coastal community, thinking maybe it had lent its name to riptides the same way the Santa Ana River Valley lends its name to the Santa Ana winds, those hot, dry winds off the desert that send temperature soaring and the humidity dropping in Southern California and can give us the infrequent but not impossible 80-degree Christmas Day. (Yuck!) No, Vellow is a few miles inland so that rules that out.

I started with my Kindle edition of "The Angry Tide" and used the define function on the word. The define function has three windows, one for the dictionary (Oxford English Dictionary is the one used for the Kindle edition of the Poldark books), which provided no definition; one for Wikipedia, which provided the information about Vellow; and one for translations, which was also blank. From there I went to cornishdictionary.org.uk, which had no results for "vellow" as either a Cornish word or an English word. Next I tried the Cornish Dialect Dictionary at Cornishpasty.com and got nada. Next stop, the 1880 book "Glossary of Words in Use in Cornwall." I struck out again.

Next idea, maybe it is an archaic English word. I tried johnsonsdictionaryonline.com (Samuel Johnson's A Dictionary of the English Language, 1755 edition). Then I tried the 1828 edition of Noah Webster's American Dictionary of the English Language  to cover the period from 1755 to 1828. No luck. 



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Date: Jun 29 8:44 AM, 2018
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I've never been able to find its meaning however as WG lived in Perranporth he writes in his autobiography on pages 260 and 261 that he enjoyed body surfing with his family. Then early one evening he went out on an incoming tide when the sea was monstrous and after his fifteenth run staggered out joyfully exhausted, so he must have known only too well about rip currents and their dangers.

So from this I've always assumed that back in the Fifties vellows must have been a local term....



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Date: Jun 28 10:07 PM, 2018
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Dave wrote:

Thanks Stella. Is that a Cornish term?


 I don't know if it's a Cornish term. Ross or Mrs G would know I think.



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Date: Jun 28 9:25 PM, 2018
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Thanks Stella. Is that a Cornish term?



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Date: Jun 28 2:39 PM, 2018
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Dave wrote:

As a retired life guard I thought WG desription and his writing was right on about it in the story. I forgot what WG called it though?                       

 

I can't remember what if at all what WG called the rip tide that caught Ross and Judd.


Dave 

WG called it a vellow. See The Angry Tide Book One Chapter 8 Part III on Page 132 of the Pan MacMillan edition. WG describes exactly what a vellow is.



-- Edited by Stella Poldark on Thursday 28th of June 2018 02:39:41 PM

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Date: Jun 28 2:28 PM, 2018
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As a retired life guard I thought WG desription and his writing was right on about it in the story. I forgot what WG called it though?                       

 

I can't remember what if at all what WG called the rip tide that caught Ross and Judd.



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Date: Jun 28 11:43 AM, 2018
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Dave wrote:

....I forgot what WG called it though?


 Sorry called what....? smile



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Date: Jun 28 3:36 AM, 2018
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As a retired life guard I thought WG desription and his writing was right on about it in the story. I forgot what WG called it though?



-- Edited by Dave on Thursday 28th of June 2018 03:36:49 AM

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Date: Jun 27 8:50 AM, 2018
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Can be confusing it's actually called a rip current which can be very dangerous to ordinary swimmers, however experienced surfers sometimes use them in big heavy swells to get out to the unbroken still rising waves. So Jud was very lucky....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rip_current



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Date: Jun 27 12:06 AM, 2018
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Dave wrote:

What is a vellow? Is it what we here in the States call a "rip tide"?


 Dave  - yes I believe it is what you call 'a rip tide' where the current takes you sideways and the advice is not to fight it but to let it take you as far as it will.



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Date: Jun 26 11:13 PM, 2018
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What is a vellow? Is it what we here in the States call a "rip tide"?



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Date: Jun 26 10:49 PM, 2018
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Little Henry wrote:

Stella,

I think Verity as a character and an actress is very popular and it was just a way of keeping her in the picture.  As a matter of fact in the show "Poldarkdish" they asked DH to write more for Verity even if it isn't in the books, as they love her so much.  (I hope she doesn't do that, but of course the whole season is already filmed).  I think Elizabeth being "flirty" is a way of showing her to be quite content and happy with her life at this point, in contrast with what is to come.  I also think DH likes to keep a bit a tension for the audience in the Ross/Elizabeth meetings.


 Little Henry - You are probably right but it is such a waste of time putting in extra scenes that are not in the book when there is so much already to cover. The trailer seemed to be showing Ross in the mine when it flooded and that doesn't look good. disbelief



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Date: Jun 26 10:05 PM, 2018
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Stella,

I think Verity as a character and an actress is very popular and it was just a way of keeping her in the picture.  As a matter of fact in the show "Poldarkdish" they asked DH to write more for Verity even if it isn't in the books, as they love her so much.  (I hope she doesn't do that, but of course the whole season is already filmed).  I think Elizabeth being "flirty" is a way of showing her to be quite content and happy with her life at this point, in contrast with what is to come.  I also think DH likes to keep a bit a tension for the audience in the Ross/Elizabeth meetings.



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Date: Jun 26 8:35 PM, 2018
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Little Henry wrote:

I thought the relationship of Ross and Demelza was well done in this episode.  Their happiness to see each other, yet their cautious approach and then the final passion and love coming through was well acted.  I was puzzled by Zachy, Sam and Paul's attitude toward Ross so I went to the book (TAT) and WG does note that there was "an element of reserve that was not there before" because of his being an MP.  He notes that going down the mine would reestablish the comaraderie which is what happens in the series.  Would have preferred fishing to fighting but paralleled the story all right with Tholly taking Jud's place.  I was so glad that the "every inch of your skin" line was used as I thought DH had missed her opportunity earlier. 


 Little Henry

I agree with you. However, there were some curious aspects of this episode leaving me puzzled. Why was Verity brought back now? She seemed to have no purpose. Elizabeth seemed quite flirty with Ross when he turned up at Trenwith. There was no suggestion of this in the book. However in many ways it did keep to the books. Like you, I would have preferred the fishing to the fight and was looking forward to seeing how they might film Ross being caught in a vellow; but you can't have everything I suppose. wink



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Date: Jun 26 4:40 PM, 2018
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I thought the relationship of Ross and Demelza was well done in this episode.  Their happiness to see each other, yet their cautious approach and then the final passion and love coming through was well acted.  I was puzzled by Zachy, Sam and Paul's attitude toward Ross so I went to the book (TAT) and WG does note that there was "an element of reserve that was not there before" because of his being an MP.  He notes that going down the mine would reestablish the comaraderie which is what happens in the series.  Would have preferred fishing to fighting but paralleled the story all right with Tholly taking Jud's place.  I was so glad that the "every inch of your skin" line was used as I thought DH had missed her opportunity earlier. 



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Date: Jun 21 9:16 AM, 2018
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Readying a new sub forum Episode 3 in time for next airing on 24th June to keep comments on each episode separate from the previous one....and so on smile

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07pn8mz/broadcasts/upcoming

 

 



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Date: Jun 21 12:11 AM, 2018
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Bumping this thread because I see 55 people have viewed but nobody has commented on the episode. Didn't anyone in the UK watch it?

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Date: Jun 19 8:50 AM, 2018
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Series 4 Episode 3



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