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Post Info TOPIC: Elizabeth Vs. Caroline


Graduate

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Date: May 29 7:33 AM, 2017
RE: Elizabeth Vs. Caroline
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LJones41 wrote:

I think Elizabeth's "fragile" nature was basically superficial.  She has always struck me as a lot tougher than many assume.  People look at her looks, her class and her behavior and see a "fragile" woman.  I guess if she had been outgoing and/or feisty, they would think otherwise.  And her willingness to be compliant only seemed to go so far, as George eventually discovered.



-- Edited by LJones41 on Saturday 27th of May 2017 08:03:13 PM


 If by superficial, you mean her delicacy was of her own making, I agree. I don't mean to suggest Elizabeth had an eating disorder, but much is made of the fact that she ate very little. Her delicacy might have been quite real but only because she didn't eat enough. And didn't she eat? Because she wanted to look fragile. Mission accomplished.



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Date: May 27 8:02 PM, 2017
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I think Elizabeth's "fragile" nature was basically superficial.  She has always struck me as a lot tougher than many assume.  People look at her looks, her class and her behavior and see a "fragile" woman.  I guess if she had been outgoing and/or feisty, they would think otherwise.  And her willingness to be compliant only seemed to go so far, as George eventually discovered.



-- Edited by LJones41 on Saturday 27th of May 2017 08:03:13 PM

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Date: May 10 11:04 AM, 2016
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Char Nanfan wrote:

I too, have always wondered what was the great attraction  Elizabeth  held for Ross, I would have liked to see more evidence of the depth of their relationship before  Ross went to war. I wonder if the memory of her was some sort of talisman for Ross when he was so far away from home  and became all mixed up with homesickness and fear and loneliness. WHen he returned, he never had chance to see if their love was real as she was then engaged to Francis and so he continued to believe she was the love of his life.


 That's the way I see it, and I suspect the folks behind the new series agree with you too. Why else would they have Ross take Elizabeth's ring and put it on his own finger when he left for the war? He survived serious injuries and returned to Cornwall still wearing the ring. His love of Elizabeth had kept him alive. 

As for Elizabeth's allure, she was the golden girl, beautiful, well-mannered, feminine, fragile and compliant. An exquisite ornament to display on the mantelpiece. 



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Date: May 10 8:26 AM, 2016
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LJones41 wrote:

I get the feeling that Elizabeth would have been more understanding of Dwight's need to practice medicine - even among the poor - than Caroline ever was.

 

That is possibly true, but Elizabeth's mother would never have agreed to a marriage to Dwight. (Although given her declining health, she might have later kicked herself for vetoing him.) I don't think Caroline didn't understand his devotion to his chosen profession and especially his patients. She just didn't like the fact that he drove himself so hard, especially after he returned from France, and exposed himself to so many contagious diseases when his health was less than robust. And the first time he was asked to consult on the care of the king, I suspect she dropped all concerns that her beloved Dr. Enys was laboring in obscurity. yes, she would rather he practiced among society patients, but Dwight's interest was mining-related respiratory diseases so he had to live where the mines were. 

 



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Date: Jan 6 4:07 PM, 2016
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I get the feeling that Elizabeth would have been more understanding of Dwight's need to practice medicine - even among the poor - than Caroline ever was.



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Date: Aug 29 3:57 PM, 2011
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Remember that Caroline had a rather lonely childhood. Abandoned, essentially by her mother, and being raised in in expensive private girls schools, she emerges as an exceptional woman. Elizabeth had a mother and father, and a home, plus Ross's romantic pursuit.



-- Edited by Wally Greer on Monday 29th of August 2011 03:57:28 PM

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Date: Aug 28 5:37 PM, 2011
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Char,

See my post in the Ros and Elizabeth thread. 

I think you are right - Ross hung onto her memory whilst in America and assumed she was thinking of him all the time.  In the first edition of RP (or the House of Stratus ed.),  it says that they exchanged letters, and after Ross returned he was mulling over her later letters (after he knew about her engagement) and discerned that he could detect a mild 'cooling off' in her manner.   He did not receive a reply from his final letter and decided to give her the benefit of the doubt; that the letter had probably gone astray. That is how much Ross wanted to believe that she would come round, put Francis aside and marry him. 

I agree that, apart from her beauty, she didn't seem Ross' type at all.  Elizabeth also says in RP that;

" We could not be happy together, we are not right temperament to blend, to live in amity"

This comes at the point when Ross has gone to see Charles about his 'unexpected bit of livestock, collected from Redruth Fair.  I will put the whole extract on the 'extra text' thread.



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Date: Aug 28 4:32 PM, 2011
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I too, have always wondered what was the great attraction  Elizabeth  held for Ross, I would have liked to see more evidence of the depth of their relationship before  Ross went to war. I wonder if the memory of her was some sort of talisman for Ross when he was so far away from home  and became all mixed up with homesickness and fear and loneliness. WHen he returned, he never had chance to see if their love was real as she was then engaged to Francis and so he continued to believe she was the love of his life.



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Date: Aug 27 10:26 PM, 2011
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Another vote for Caroline, in case my user name doesn't give it away. Caroline is real, intelligent, principled, humorous, strong willed, loyal, yet flawed and aware of her failings. She doesn't take herself too seriously, allowing others to do that for her. I am drawn to her self-deprecating approach to her own character and all that concerns her, and the brick wall that surrounds her.

Elizabeth...perfect for the part WG wanted her to play, but a shallow cardboard cut out of a woman. One of the major flaws of the books is that, in my opinion, WG never really explained the allure, never gave us a reason why Ross would care. Elizabeth was a trophy, blonde, beautiful, fragile. Ross was drawn to three other women in the books; Demelza, Caroline and Harriet. Elizabeth is the odd one out. To me it doesn't make sense that Ross,s character and strengths develop, yet her remains drawn to her. Did he want her because George had her? Who knows.

-- Edited by Caroline Penvenen Enys on Saturday 27th of August 2011 10:27:02 PM



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Date: Aug 26 5:29 PM, 2011
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Brigantia wrote:

Caroline every time. I just love her self-mocking attitude. She also has the looks I always wanted (tall, slender and redheaded).

But she doesn't always take the comfortable option in every situation just to make things easier for herself. I'm thinking here of when she left Hugh for a while after the death of their little girl.

Compare this with Elizabeth's treatment of poor Morwenna - she knew the girl would be terribly unhappy, but she took that route so that Morwenna wouldn't marry (albeit happily) beneath her station and, probably more importantly, Drake's undesirable influence over Geoffrey Charles would be removed.

Caroline - 1
Elizabeth - 0


 Throwing Wenna under the bus was SOP during that era, one must remember. Demelza and Caroline are exceptional in any era, but Elizabeth had to conform.



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Date: Aug 26 3:55 PM, 2011
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Caroline every time. I just love her self-mocking attitude. She also has the looks I always wanted (tall, slender and redheaded).

But she doesn't always take the comfortable option in every situation just to make things easier for herself. I'm thinking here of when she left Hugh for a while after the death of their little girl.

Compare this with Elizabeth's treatment of poor Morwenna - she knew the girl would be terribly unhappy, but she took that route so that Morwenna wouldn't marry (albeit happily) beneath her station and, probably more importantly, Drake's undesirable influence over Geoffrey Charles would be removed.

Caroline - 1
Elizabeth - 0

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Date: Aug 12 2:13 AM, 2011
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Caroline - without a doubt. And willing to marry outside her station for love bless her....
I always thought Elizabeth a complete drip.

Bronny

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Date: Aug 3 4:05 AM, 2011
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Grace wrote:

Well, Caroline will always win my vote, she smart, sassy and very sophisticated.  She can be arrogant but she is never a snob.  She is thoughtful and caring, look how she secretly helps Ross when he is in financial trouble, and Drakes mentions how she would come by and talk to him and treat him as an equal.  Caroline is a remarkable woman.

With Elizabeth sometimes it hard to see just what kind of woman she really is, we see the somewhat vain, selfish side of her in the beginning of the books.  But she is a loving and caring mother to her children.  I think Elizabeth is simply a woman of her time, where duty is everything, and she will always do her duty.  I started to like her a little towards the end; she showed that she had some backbone when it came to her children.  I like the change in attitude she make towards Drake.  In the end I think that she was a good person just a little to into herself.

I find it a little strange that these two women were not closer friends, Elizabeth badly needed a girlfriend.  Maybe Caroline could have advised Elizabeth not to make the choice that she did. 


 I think I remember a line that said that Elizabeth and Caroline were regular social contacts.



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Date: Aug 1 6:57 PM, 2011
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Well, Caroline will always win my vote, she smart, sassy and very sophisticated.  She can be arrogant but she is never a snob.  She is thoughtful and caring, look how she secretly helps Ross when he is in financial trouble, and Drakes mentions how she would come by and talk to him and treat him as an equal.  Caroline is a remarkable woman.

With Elizabeth sometimes it hard to see just what kind of woman she really is, we see the somewhat vain, selfish side of her in the beginning of the books.  But she is a loving and caring mother to her children.  I think Elizabeth is simply a woman of her time, where duty is everything, and she will always do her duty.  I started to like her a little towards the end; she showed that she had some backbone when it came to her children.  I like the change in attitude she make towards Drake.  In the end I think that she was a good person just a little to into herself.

I find it a little strange that these two women were not closer friends, Elizabeth badly needed a girlfriend.  Maybe Caroline could have advised Elizabeth not to make the choice that she did. 



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Date: Aug 1 12:25 AM, 2011
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Caroline! I actually find her quite humorous, what with her Horace the Thirds and talent for sarcasm. There she has something up on Elizabeth - I cannot recall Elizabeth ever being sarcastic. I think it's a very engaging characteristic in a character, and makes Caroline so fascinating. She also knows her own mind very well, and is fairly flirtacious, which is something Elizabeth is not - she just seems to drift along on her sea of admirers.

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Date: Jul 31 6:13 PM, 2011
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Both are clock-stopping gorgeous. Both are gentry. Both would last less than a month with Ross. :) In Caroline's case, Ross would lose the verbal and pistol duels. BOOM!

Compare these two of the Four Swans!



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