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Post Info TOPIC: Joshua, Grace, Claude Anthony & Julia....


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Date: Mar 30 8:43 PM, 2017
RE: Joshua, Grace, Claude Anthony & Julia....
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Fijane wrote:

Dark Mare, I am in awe of your analytical mind!

This whole thread just goes to show what tiny changes in a single event can cascade into history-changing consequences.


 Why thank you, Fijane, for the kind words. My poor father, who tried so hard to teach me to play chess, bridge and pool competently, would be stunned to read those words. He would never let me believe he thought I was a hopeless case, which just prolonged his agony.

Your observation reminds me of this proverb:

For Want of a Nail

For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe the horse was lost.
For want of a horse the rider was lost.
For want of a rider the message was lost.
For want of a message the battle was lost.
For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.



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Date: Mar 30 12:02 AM, 2017
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Dark Mare, I am in awe of your analytical mind!

This whole thread just goes to show what tiny changes in a single event can cascade into history-changing consequences.



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Date: Mar 24 11:02 AM, 2017
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All very interesting and yes I definitely agree with both Mrs. G's overall major point and also Stella's points as well.

For me however I think the biggest and most relevant question mark in all the books has always been just how much effect the most important people of all in Ross' life Joshua and Grace had had on Ross in his very formative younger years before they died, also had Claude and Julia lived as we'll never ever know. This is why I felt it would be interesting to pose the question as it might possibly reveal some additional and interesting 3 dimensional views and thoughts to what we already know about him.

Consequently I think Dark Mare has raised some useful angles and points here to Ross and the books as a whole had Joshua, Grace, Claude and Julia lived with the Warleggans still very much a major and potentially dangerous force always to be very careful of, adding for me a sort of 3 dimensional backdrop to what WG actually did write. Rather like a stage play where the backdrops in say the first act of a performance such as calm pastoral scenes with white puffy clouds and blue skies and lilting musical scores, are changed in the next act to dark gloomy silhouettes of Gothic castles and weird dragons and other dark creatures of the night all to the accompaniment of loud crashes of thunder and flashes of lightning reflecting each acts' changes of mood and settings.

Early days, yet a lot of 3 dimensional food for further thought I think...smile



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Date: Mar 24 9:44 AM, 2017
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Mrs Gimlett wrote:

 

Personally, I find it far more interesting to discuss the books as they were written, rather than anything that did not happen and is all pie in the sky. 

WG decided on the make up and characters of the families; we should respect his writings.  That is what makes the Poldark world so infinitely fascinating.


 While I agree with you, Mrs G, that it is more interesting to discuss the books as they are, I think it has been useful to ponder this question and to see what a difference the presence of Joshua and Grace would have made in the lives of the characters, especially the main characters. However, I wouldn't want to spend time thinking about 'what if' again as I have enough problems remembering the books as they are. confuse



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Date: Mar 24 9:16 AM, 2017
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Personally, I find it far more interesting to discuss the books as they were written, rather than anything that did not happen and is all pie in the sky. 

WG decided on the make up and characters of the families; we should respect his writings.  That is what makes the Poldark world so infinitely fascinating.



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Date: Mar 24 3:40 AM, 2017
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Given that the Nampara Poldarks were solidly in the Pascoe Bank camp until the end of Harris Pascoe's life and were in the banking business with him by then, I don't think they would have had too many additional problems with the Warleggan Bank. They were along for the ride each time the Warleggans went after the Pascoe Bank, but they were always made whole by the bank that stepped in to rescue or acquire Pascoe within a few weeks.

If Grace and Joshua were alive and prospering throughout Ross' childhood, Wheal Leisure would never have closed the first time (during Joshua's tenure) so Ross wouldn't have had to bring investors in to reopen it. That would have kept the Warleggans from buying up the shares and closing the mine once its output was decreasing the value of that from the Warleggans' rival mines. 

The Carnmore Copper Co. misadventure probably would not have happened because Joshua would have spotted the hole in the plan's logic: Carnmore made sense only as a straw company bidding up the copper prices. Once Sir John invested in smelting equipment and workers were hired, it was unsustainable. With no Carnmore, Ross has no reason to seek the promissory note. And with no Warleggan investment in Wheal Leisure, there is no Nampara investment with which to reopen Wheal Grace. Then again, if Wheal Leisure is still open, its miners must be getting nearer to the Trevorgie lode. 

If there is no Carnmore, there is no list of investors for Francis to rattle off to George the night that Verity eloped. Without that, Francis can do no damage so Ross can get upset with Demelza only because she ignored his request (or command?) that she stay out of Verity's love life. His mother would probably step into the fight, taking Demelza's side because Francis' irresponsibility had cost Verity her only financial security, the income from her shares in Grambler. He should not have the right to force her to live in reduced circumstances when she has an alternative, marriage to Andrew Blamey, the man she loves. (I have never understood why Demelza didn't raise this point with Ross. Actions have consequences.) 

If Julia is still alive, does that mean Demelza didn't go to Trenwith to nurse the cousins? Did the outbreak of putrid throat claim Geoffrey Charles because Demelza wasn't there to save him? Or did Julia survive the illness? Did it claim Demelza in her place? Or did Ross' parents take charge as soon as Demelza came home from Trenwith, caring for Julia and putting Demelza in isolation until she either got sick or the risk of contagion had passed? 

The Warleggans would still be a burden for the Trenwith Poldarks so Joshua and Ross would be sucked into some of the drama. But if Wheal Leisure was still fully in Joshua's hands, would there have been a Ross-Francis partnership reopening Wheal Grace? Without the accident at Grace, Francis would still be alive. A live Francis means no Warleggan proposal, no May 9th, no marriage to George, no Valentine, no Ursula and a live Elizabeth. 

Once Ross became the hero of the French prison raid, the Warleggans lost a lot of their power over him because he attracted the attention of the Bassets and the Boscowans. Clashes with George then were about Elizabeth, and if Francis was still alive because Wheal Grace had never reopened, she was still his wife and not George's. With no Warleggan marriage, there was no Morwenna and Drake, no Ossie, no John Conan, no Warleggan marriage offer for Cuby, no stage coach affair.



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Date: Mar 23 5:06 PM, 2017
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Some very interesting thoughts thanks to all....smile

However keeping as before all the same characters and situations as in the books I think it's still missing one very essential counter balance, that of the Warleggans.

So assuming that Cary, Nicholas and George are also still alive at the end of Bella as well. Given their acquisitive cold blooded and controlling natures as well as still owning most of the county's banking operations and important debtors, how do you think things would have then turned out had Joshua, Grace, Claude Anthony and Julia still been alive as well....?



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Date: Mar 23 10:10 AM, 2017
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Ross Poldark wrote:

 

 

Keeping all the same characters and situations as in the books, how do you think things might have turned out for Ross if Joshua and Grace had instead both lived until their mid 80s, and both Julia and Claude Anthony were still alive at the end of "Bella"....?


Ross,

You make this difficult by requiring Julia to be in the picture as well as Ross' parents and brother. For there to be a Julia, there must also be a Demelza, but how did she and happy-families Ross even meet? I see two possibilities: 

1.) The trip to the Redruth Fair happened largely as described only Grace, instead of Jud and Prudie, was at Nampara to help Ross figure out what to do for Demelza (clean her up and take her home or take her in and give her a job). Of course Grace would have to go along to assure Tom Carne that his daughter had not been mistreated by her son. I'm guessing that Ross inherited his do-gooder gene from his mother rather than his father so it makes sense she would get involved in making sure the girl got back to her family.

2.) They met at or near Tehidy Park, the Basset estate. (Demelza's childhood home is a half-mile from the gates of Tehidy, according to Page 317, "The Four Swans.")  

Option 1 seems more likely given Demelza's determination. If she fell in love with Nampara and the countryside around it when Jud and Prudie were taking care of it, she most likely would also do so when the farm was under Joshua and Grace's supervision. That visit to Nampara when she was 13 would stay with her. Likely she would decide to get a job in one of the big houses when she was older. To prepare herself, she probably would have gotten a job at Tehidy first. Work experience gained at an estate like Tehidy should help her get a better job at one of the smaller ones near Nampara -- maybe even Nampara itself. 

But the question was what would Ross be like if he had grown up in the Nampara of happier days rather than the one whose family had been decimated by death and grief? Would his personality be different? Probably. Would he be as close to the families of his employees and tenants as well as his cousins at Trenwith? Possibly not because Nampara would have a family in it so he wouldn't have had to leave home to find companionship. Would he have been as deferential to Charles Poldark? I doubt it. I also doubt his mother would have allowed him to leave school at 13. I imagine there would have been a university education as well as an extended trip to Europe with Francis before he settled down to learn mining from his father. Then the search for a suitable wife would begin. 

Would a different Ross be drawn to a quiet beauty like Elizabeth, or he would he favor a livelier woman? The Chynoweths seem disappointed by life and carrying a grudge, and their daughter seems to share some of that disappointment. The Nampara Poldarks have a closer connection to their tenants and employees, and this brings them in contact with people who have valid reasons to be glum. A happier Ross probably would have less patience with the Chynoweths and find the idea of one day providing a home to the older Chynoweths less than appealing. Then again, a Ross who had stayed in school would not be the reckless bad boy who caught Elizabeth's eye.

Would a happier Ross be drawn to Demelza? And would he still be willing to cause tongues to wag by taking up with a certain curly-haired servant? Would the loudest opposition be coming from his parents and brother or from others farther afield?  Demelza certainly would recognize her rescuer, but would he recognize her? And if he did, would he let on? I like to think he would find the relentless happiness of the girl from Illugan just as appealing if he had grown up in a home less touched by sorrow. Then again, he would have to if there was to be a Julia. 

 

 



-- Edited by Dark Mare on Thursday 23rd of March 2017 10:15:27 AM

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Date: Mar 22 7:45 PM, 2017
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It isn't a fan preference for Demelza which makes me believe Ross and Elizabeth wouldn't have been happily married. These are, after all, fictional characters created by Winston Graham, and he appears to have decided that Ross and Demela were going to have a long and generally happy marriage - if he had thought Ross would have been happy with Elizabeth, he would have written all of them differently, the story would have been very different. He wrote Elizabeth as a woman of her class and time, she would have expected the traditional life of a local squire's wife, while Ross was unconventional and restless. Of course we can't know for sure - that would be like predicting the future.



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Date: Mar 22 4:03 PM, 2017
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I've been reading these comments on how Ross and Elizabeth would turn out as a couple and I get the feeling that these comments are basically assumptions or wishful thinking.  It seems as if no one wants to consider the possibility that Ross and Elizabeth could have maintained a successful marriage, due to obvious fan preference for Demelza. 

I know that Elizabeth had suspected that she and Ross would not have maintained a successful marriage.  But as far as I'm concerned, I honestly don't know one way or the other.  There is a possibility that their marriage could have been successful, yet different from his marriage to Demelza . . . or that it would have failed.  I just don't know.



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Ross posted "

Keeping all the same characters and situations as in the books, how do you think things might have turned out for Ross if Joshua and Grace had instead both lived until their mid 80s, and both Julia and Claude Anthony were still alive at the end of "Bella"....?

SusanneMcCarthy wrote:

I don't think it would have been nearly so interesting. Those losses shaped the characters. Because Ross was alone when he returned from America, with Nampara in the poor state it was, it brought out his strength of character - he had to find a way to cope. He may have rescued Demelza, but he wouldn't have brought her home - it would have been his mother's role to hire a kitchen maid, and I would expect she would have had local girls in (possibly Jinny!) So he'd never have seen Demelza again. It's quite possible that as he didn't have the need to salvage Nampara he may have gone off to University or to London.

There's also the possibility that if Grace had lived, Joshua wouldn't have earned his bad reputation, he would have been more motivated to work the mines to maintain his income, and Ross may therefore have been considered a suitable match for Elizabeth. And they'd have settled down into dull respectability, gradually getting as bored with each other as we would have been if that had been what the books were about.

Thank goodness WG had the good sense to slaughter them all before putting pen to paper!


 It is possible that Ross would not have brought Demelza home but, even if he had, the relationship would not have been able to develop with his parents around and Ross may have not been confronted about his feelings for Demelza. We do not know about the health of Joshua and Grace and how dependent or not they would have been on Ross. Charles was a devious man and probably would have contrived the marriage between Francis and Elizabeth regardless. If Ross had married Elizabeth I doubt she would have agreed to live at Nampara. There are a lot of ifs here. One more certain aspect would have been George who I think might have been more intimidated by the combination of Joshua and Ross. If, as Susanne has suggested, Ross were to have gone to London or Oxford then the story would have been completely different. Ross has stipulated the same characters so I assume that would extend to all Ross' friends - the Martins, the Daniels etc. Just some initial thoughts. I agree with Susanne that it probably wouldn't have been as interesting or as attention grabbing.



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I don't think it would have been nearly so interesting. Those losses shaped the characters. Because Ross was alone when he returned from America, with Nampara in the poor state it was, it brought out his strength of character - he had to find a way to cope. He may have rescued Demelza, but he wouldn't have brought her home - it would have been his mother's role to hire a kitchen maid, and I would expect she would have had local girls in (possibly Jinny!) So he'd never have seen Demelza again. It's quite possible that as he didn't have the need to salvage Nampara he may have gone off to University or to London.

There's also the possibility that if Grace had lived, Joshua wouldn't have earned his bad reputation, he would have been more motivated to work the mines to maintain his income, and Ross may therefore have been considered a suitable match for Elizabeth. And they'd have settled down into dull respectability, gradually getting as bored with each other as we would have been if that had been what the books were about.

Thank goodness WG had the good sense to slaughter them all before putting pen to paper!



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Date: Mar 5 12:01 PM, 2017
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Keeping all the same characters and situations as in the books, how do you think things might have turned out for Ross if Joshua and Grace had instead both lived until their mid 80s, and both Julia and Claude Anthony were still alive at the end of "Bella"....?



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