Members Login
Username 
 
Password 
    Remember Me  
Post Info TOPIC: First of June 1787


Honorary Life Member. Forum Moderator

Status: Offline
Posts: 783
Date: Jan 18 3:46 PM, 2017
RE: First of June 1787
Permalink  
 


Now let's get back on track, please!

 



__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 338
Date: Jan 18 12:30 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Hollyhock wrote:

Stella wrote:  So now I am still wondering what Demelza was referring to when she said "I think I do sometimes displease you."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry Stella, I don't recall that conversation. Which episode is it in?


 It's in episode 4 of series 1. Ross sees that the pilchards have been sighted and rides back to Nampara to get Demelza so she can help gather them. He tells her to make haste but doesn't say why. She stops and then indicates there is something wrong by her body language. Ross impatiently asks her what is wrong and that is when she says she thinks sometimes she does displease him.

Stella



__________________


Honorary Life Member. Forum Moderator

Status: Offline
Posts: 783
Date: Jan 18 9:28 AM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Is this a line from the TV series?  I cannot recall it as being said, certainly not in the first book.

If it is referring to the series, we are going off-topic.  This is supposed to be a discussion about the days following the seduction, leading up to the wedding.

 

Do you think Demelza wore her pink dimity frock when she became Mrs Poldark?  Would Ross have dressed carefully, as he did 'when going amongst people of his own class', or did he walk up to the church in his mining clothes?  Did  he get her ring in Solomon's in Truro, or was it a cheap one purchased from some stall or other?



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 156
Date: Jan 18 12:35 AM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Stella wrote:  So now I am still wondering what Demelza was referring to when she said "I think I do sometimes displease you."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry Stella, I don't recall that conversation. Which episode is it in?



__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 423
Date: Jan 17 4:38 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Mrs Gimlett wrote:

Demelza was not underage.  She was under 21.  A marriage was quite legal, even for a girl of under 21, without parental consent, so long as Banns were called and the parent did not forbid them  (the Banns).  (Hardwickes Marriage Act 1753)

I agree under normal circumstances Ross would have asked the father for the hand of a girl, but Demelza's case was somewhat different.  She wasn't being co-erced, which was far more important.  Think poor Morwenna.



-- Edited by Mrs Gimlett on Monday 16th of January 2017 05:06:02 PM


 But he made no attempt to inform her family until Demelza spoke up. He was unwilling to give her father the chance to forbid the banns, which violated the spirit of the law. The Marriage Act presupposed that both families would reside in the parish where the wedding would be held. Ross was able to game the rules because the Carnes lived in Illogan, but he should have had enough character not to take advantage of that fact. What was he afraid of? That Tom Carne would make him wrestle for his consent? 



__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 338
Date: Jan 17 10:09 AM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Hollyhock wrote:

Hi Stella,

Paraphrasing another DH quote about the June event, I think Ross' tone was meant to show his "indifference" to the "niceties" of society and especially to the notoriety that the marriage would cause among all classes. But by that time Demelza was used to his arrogance and appreciated it as integral part of his personality. She loved the fact that he was arrogant but not a snob, so I don't think she would have been intimidated by his tone, in this particular instance.  

 


 Thank you Hollyhock. This makes sense and accords with Ross' character. So now I am still wondering what Demelza was referring to when she said "I think I do sometimes displease you." Perhaps it was Ross barking orders at her to make haste.



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 156
Date: Jan 16 9:58 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Mrs Gimlett wrote:

A marriage was quite legal, even for a girl of under 21, without parental consent, so long as Banns were called and the parent did not forbid them (the Banns).  (Hardwickes Marriage Act 1753)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mrs Gimlett--thank you for documenting this. I had earlier run across the following about young women on Wikipedia:

"Those under the age of 21 had to have parental consent if they married by licence; marriages by banns, by contrast, were valid as long as the parent of the minor did not actually forbid the banns."

Then WG tells us:  

"Demelza did not see her father again that year.  A few weeks after the banns were called, she persuaded Ross to send Jud to Illogan with a verbal message that they were to be married in a fortnight. Carne was down the mine when Jud arrived, so he was able only to deliver the message to a fat little woman in black. Thereafter silence fell. Demelza was nervous that her father might turn up and create a scene at the wedding, but all passed quietly. Tom Carne had accepted his defeat."

 



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 156
Date: Jan 16 9:46 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Hi Stella,

Paraphrasing another DH quote about the June event, I think Ross' tone was meant to show his "indifference" to the "niceties" of society and especially to the notoriety that the marriage would cause among all classes. But by that time Demelza was used to his arrogance and appreciated it as integral part of his personality. She loved the fact that he was arrogant but not a snob, so I don't think she would have been intimidated by his tone, in this particular instance.  

 



__________________


Honorary Life Member. Forum Moderator

Status: Offline
Posts: 783
Date: Jan 16 4:54 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Demelza was not underage.  She was under 21.  A marriage was quite legal, even for a girl of under 21, without parental consent, so long as Banns were called and the parent did not forbid them  (the Banns).  (Hardwickes Marriage Act 1753)

I agree under normal circumstances Ross would have asked the father for the hand of a girl, but Demelza's case was somewhat different.  She wasn't being co-erced, which was far more important.  Think poor Morwenna.



-- Edited by Mrs Gimlett on Monday 16th of January 2017 05:06:02 PM

__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 423
Date: Jan 16 2:18 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Hollyhock wrote:

It's consistent with his character that Ross would have proposed, no matter how unlikely he thought it would be that Demelza would refuse him. Once he had decided to marry her, I think he would have accorded her all the courtesies that he would have any woman he was considering marrying, gentle born or not. He would have done this not only because he was a considerate young man, but because once he made his decision, she was forever transformed in his mind from a servant to an acceptable match. ... 


 Except he didn't. He left out one rather important thing: Asking the bride's father for her hand. And marrying an underage girl -- the age of consent was 21; Demelza was 17 -- without parental consent or even notification was against the law. Ross gamed the rules regarding having the banns called (According to an article I read about the Marriage Act of 1753, the law expected the parents of the bridal couple, especially if one was underage, to arrange having the banns called, not the couple themselves, and that was regarded as consent.) and apparently had no intention of notifying Tom Carne. Demelza had to ask him to notify her father. Did he then saddle Darkie and ride to Illugan? No, he sent Jud with a verbal message for Tom Carne. He was at work so Jud left the message with a fat, little woman in black, presumably Nellie Carne, Tom's wife. But Jud didn't bother to find out who the woman was.

Do you think Ross would have pulled this on the Chynoweths, whom he detested, or any other family in the gentry? I doubt it. 

The awful thing about this is, if Demelza hadn't spoken up, Pastor Odgers could have been prosecuted for performing the ceremony. The penalty for the clergyman who performed a marriage ceremony involving an underage person whose parent opposed the marriage? Fourteen years' transportation. The Marriage Act goes after clergymen because it was written to stop the George Wickhams of the world from eloping with the underage daughters of people of means, not the Ross Poldarks from marrying miners' daughters, but the law is the law.

 



__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 338
Date: Jan 16 11:25 AM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Hollyhock wrote:

It's consistent with his character that Ross would have proposed, no matter how unlikely he thought it would be that Demelza would refuse him. Once he had decided to marry her, I think he would have accorded her all the courtesies that he would have any woman he was considering marrying, gentle born or not. He would have done this not only because he was a considerate young man, but because once he made his decision, she was forever transformed in his mind from a servant to an acceptable match. Only Ross and Caroline displayed this ability to make these types of sea changes so quickly and so decisively. And of course R&D continued to sleep together before the wedding. He was a healthy young man who had been celibate for years and she was apparently eager to please. (I did chuckle when it appeared that she immediately took control of his bedroom; I wonder if a nicer bedroom was her goal all along--just kidding!)blankstare

Actually, I think that Debbie H. did a good job of capturing the essence of the June events in S1. Some of her imagined dialog illustrates this.  In trying to understand the unexpected marriage herself: Demelza says to Ross:

"Folks will wonder. They'll not understand. I don't rightly understand."

Ross: "What?"

Demelza: "How it came to happen...this...we..." 

Ross: "You're not required to understand. You're required to accept it as a fact of life."

This fits very well with their characters.  

 

 

 


 Hollyhock - I agree that the words themselves are good but the tone in which Ross delivered them was very dismissive and that was presumably Debbie H's intention. What do you make of this, assuming you agree with me? Not long after this Demelza tell Ross she thinks that sometimes she displeases him and I have wondered if that was because of the tone of his voice.

Stella



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 156
Date: Jan 15 10:23 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

It's consistent with his character that Ross would have proposed, no matter how unlikely he thought it would be that Demelza would refuse him. Once he had decided to marry her, I think he would have accorded her all the courtesies that he would have any woman he was considering marrying, gentle born or not. He would have done this not only because he was a considerate young man, but because once he made his decision, she was forever transformed in his mind from a servant to an acceptable match. Only Ross and Caroline displayed this ability to make these types of sea changes so quickly and so decisively. And of course R&D continued to sleep together before the wedding. He was a healthy young man who had been celibate for years and she was apparently eager to please. (I did chuckle when it appeared that she immediately took control of his bedroom; I wonder if a nicer bedroom was her goal all along--just kidding!)blankstare

Actually, I think that Debbie H. did a good job of capturing the essence of the June events in S1. Some of her imagined dialog illustrates this.  In trying to understand the unexpected marriage herself: Demelza says to Ross:

"Folks will wonder. They'll not understand. I don't rightly understand."

Ross: "What?"

Demelza: "How it came to happen...this...we..." 

Ross: "You're not required to understand. You're required to accept it as a fact of life."

This fits very well with their characters.  

 

 

 



__________________


Administration

Status: Offline
Posts: 1643
Date: Jan 15 12:27 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Good find as I've been following this thread with interest.... smile



__________________

"Perfection is a full stop .... Ever the climbing but never the attaining Of the mountain top." W.G.

 

 



Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 338
Date: Jan 15 10:22 AM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Mrs Gimlett wrote:

For no discernible reason, I was dozing off last night when a sentence from Warleggan popped into my mind.  Since I was thinking of another thing entirely, I cannot explain it, but that is the unfathomable working of the mind for you.

Anyway, this was what I recalled.

Ross has been in Truro all day making arrangements for the disposal of the mine gear of Wheal Grace.  He arrived home late and Demelza met him in the yard.

'... is it new?'  He touched her bodice.

'New?'  She smiled.

'Well, I have not seen it, I'm sure.'

'I made it out of two of your old shirts which were far gone for patching.  There is good material if you pick out where the wear does not come.'

'When I asked you to marry me I did not suppose you would be driven to making blouses out of the tails of my shirts.'

 

So now we know - he did propose.


 Mrs G - Thank you so much for this. For some reason this matter has been nagging me recently. You have such a detailed knowledge of the books and remarkable recall. smile



__________________


Honorary Life Member. Forum Moderator

Status: Offline
Posts: 783
Date: Jan 15 9:15 AM, 2017
Permalink  
 

For no discernible reason, I was dozing off last night when a sentence from Warleggan popped into my mind.  Since I was thinking of another thing entirely, I cannot explain it, but that is the unfathomable working of the mind for you.

Anyway, this was what I recalled.

Ross has been in Truro all day making arrangements for the disposal of the mine gear of Wheal Grace.  He arrived home late and Demelza met him in the yard.

'... is it new?'  He touched her bodice.

'New?'  She smiled.

'Well, I have not seen it, I'm sure.'

'I made it out of two of your old shirts which were far gone for patching.  There is good material if you pick out where the wear does not come.'

'When I asked you to marry me I did not suppose you would be driven to making blouses out of the tails of my shirts.'

 

So now we know - he did propose.



__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 423
Date: Jan 14 5:23 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Dave, 

Hurry up and finish "Warleggan" so Demelza's snarky reference to a bribe will make sense. In the book Ross has a line in the similar vein, and it works. Demelza's line doesn't work.  

I just think Demelza was entitled to a sincere apology, which she never got in either ending of Series 2. (She got one in "Warleggan," but only when Ross realized he actually could lose her -- or maybe he only then realized he never had apologized to her.) She wanted to put what happened behind her, but she couldn't until he apologized. Why? Because an apology is a mark of respect, and Ross hadn't shown her much for most of Series 2 -- or in books 3 and 4. Demelza had been the bigger person a few times too often, and Ross had mistaken accommodation for subservience. 



-- Edited by Dark Mare on Saturday 14th of January 2017 05:24:00 PM



-- Edited by Dark Mare on Saturday 14th of January 2017 05:26:05 PM

__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 104
Date: Jan 14 2:55 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

I haven't read that far in Warleggan yet but in the film series I believe in the scene where he gives one last attempt to get Demelza to stay he goes beyond an apology. I believe an straight apology " I am sorry, I won't do it again" sounds shallow to me and maybe to Demelza, she would think and say something  along the lines of " what a bribe" . No Ross explains his actions and impulses which he admits his arrogance idiocy... ...his one true abiding love is for her. I believe that really sinks into Demelza and to her exposes Ross's heart and his desire to her. 



__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 423
Date: Jan 14 4:35 AM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Dave,
I love the Night of the Pilchards too. It is the recollection of this:
 
"I love you," he said, "and am your servant. Demelza, look at me. If I've done wrong in the past, give me leave to make amends."  The Poldark Saga Book 1   pp. 298-299
 
that makes the following apology so inadequate, coming 7.5 months after the deed was done and only when Demelza was about to mount Darkie to leave him: 

"And theres one other thing I want you to know," he added. "That is how deeply sorry I am that I ever hurt you in the first place - in May, I mean. You were so undeserving of any harm. All these months ... I know how you will have felt. I want you to know that." -- Warleggan, Page 467
 
And in Series 2, he doesn't even apologize. He just tells Demelza he loves her, not Elizabeth, and says she will never come between them again. And that's supposed to be enough. (The deleted scene, presumably the alternative ending, at least had the return of the brooch, which demonstrated a desire to make amends.)


__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 104
Date: Jan 13 11:03 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Continuing on after their marriage Ross is perplexed that something is not right, there are two not quite distinct persons in Demelza. This part of the book really touches me.

There comes a time as WG writes -He wished he could separate the two. He felt he would be happier if he could separate them entirely. But as the weeks passed it seemed that the reverse of what he wanted was taking place. The two entities were becoming less distinct. It was not until the first week of August that a fusion of the two occurred. p. 291

Next comes a lovely passage which like think of as a mini honeymoon for Ross and Demelza. There are no distractions or interruptions while they are alone together in the boat. Great descriptive by WG writing here about the sea, the fisherman and their boats. I really loved this.  

It starts a chapter 28 when the pilchards were coming in the the fishing boats were out on the sea. Here is a continuation of the Romance now in its early marriage phase. 

WG writes Demelza, he said. Um? It is low tide at eleven, he said. And the moons up. What if we rowed around to Sawle and watched them putting down the tuck net. Ross, that would be lovely! Shall we take Jud to help row us? Ross teased. No, no, let us go, just the two of us! Let us go alone. You and I, Ross. She was almost dancing before his chair. I will row. I am as strong as Jud any day. Well go an watch, just the two of us alone. He laughed. Youd think it was a ball Id invited you to. Dyou think I cant row you that far myself? When shall we start? In an hour. Good, good, good. Ill make ready something to eat an brandy in a flask, lest it be cold sitting, an an a rug for me, and a basket for some fish. She fairly ran from the room. They set off for Nampara Cove shortly after nine. It was a warm, still evening with the three-quarter moon already high. In Nampara Cove they dragged their small boat from the cave where it was kept across the pale, firm sand to the seas edge. Demelza got in, and  Ross pushed the boat through the fringe of whispering surf and jumped in as it floated. p.293

Then the final realization comes to Ross this uneasiness with Demelza as his wife has ended. 

WG writes: Then without words they turned, walked across the sand and shingle, crossed the stream at the stepping stones, and walked together hand in hand the half mile to the house. She was quite silent. He had never done what he had done that night. He had never kissed her before except in passion. It was something different. She knew him to be closer to her then than he had ever been before. For the very first time they were on a level. It was not Ross Poldark, gentleman farmer, of Nampara, and his maid, whom he had married because it was better than being alone. They were a man and a woman, with no inequality between them. She was older than her years and he younger, and they walked home hand in hand through the slanting shadows of the new darkness. I am happy, he thought again. Something is happening to me, to us, transmuting our shabby little love affair. Keep this mood, hold on to it. No slipping back. The only sound all the way home was the bubbling of the stream beside their path. 

At that, his smile faded and he kissed her. Ross, she said. Dear Ross. I love you, he said, and am your servant. Demelza, look at me. If Ive done wrong in the past, give me leave to make amends.  The Poldark Saga Book 1   pp. 298-299

 

Reading this again still brings moisture to my eyes and a lump in my throat. What a great love story what  great writing. This however may be the pinnacle of their Romance period. 

 

 

 



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 104
Date: Jan 13 10:22 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

What I like most about these books is the story of Ross and Demelza's marriage. This has touched me very much as I can relate to it since my wife Phyllis and I have been married for 54 years. I would like to bring up that Ross just didn't impulsively "abed" Demelza although it may have appeared that way. There was a courtship going on before this event. I would call it the  Romance phase of courtship and early marriage.  

Here is the excerpt from the book to shown what I mean. 

 There were plenty of times when he was lonely and glad of companionship. Verity no longer had the heart to come over, and Demelza took her place. Sometimes she even sat with him in the evening. It had begun with her going to ask him for orders about the farm, by her staying to talk, and then somehow she was sitting in the parlor with him two or three evenings a week. She was, of course, the most amenable of companions, being content to talk if he wanted to talk, or to persevere with her reading if he wanted to read, or willing to slip out at once if her if her presence was unwelcome. He still drank heavily.

The Poldark Saga Book 1   p. 222.

I would recommend reading the whole chapter 20 to get the sense of this courtship. 

Ross and Demelza were married on the twenty-fourth of June, 1787.

p. 285 Chapter 27 The Poldark Saga Book 1

 

 



__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 338
Date: Jan 13 7:47 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Mrs Gimlett wrote:

When I began the thread, I used the date of June 1st because Ross decided to marry Demelza within 2 days of their first sleeping together.  Interesting that during those two days Elizabeth called and Demelza met her for the first time.  Maybe it re-awakened desire in Ross when he saw her after some time and that was the reason for his decision.  Two days of turbulent minds?  Or two days of hard practical thinking?  For Demelza, two days of day-dreaming and amazement?

Perhaps it was exactly as WG writes it and Demelza was a suitable match for him; after all he knew a good deal more about her than he would have known about Elizabeth, had he married her.  To live together in the same house is very different from the odd meeting, which would have been orchestrated by an eagle-eyed parent or two. He knew how capable Demelza was; after 30th May, maybe he knew how desirable she was and the two together decided him.

Whatever the reasons, I agree he would have talked with her about it, because he was a fair-minded man, and way ahead of his time.  After the night of the pilchard catch, their marriage became a proper partnership - he (mostly) listened to her views, even if he later discarded them.


 From this thread I have learned quite a bit, but perhaps the most important thing I've learned is to pay attention to dates. I realised I have read all 12 books, and most of them at least twice, and yet I have paid almost no attention to when things happened or the timespan of various stages. There are, no doubt, many other matters of detail that I have entirely overlooked so now I have a specific purpose when I next read these amazing stories.

Stella



__________________


Honorary Life Member. Forum Moderator

Status: Offline
Posts: 783
Date: Jan 13 7:32 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

When I began the thread, I used the date of June 1st because Ross decided to marry Demelza within 2 days of their first sleeping together.  Interesting that during those two days Elizabeth called and Demelza met her for the first time.  Maybe it re-awakened desire in Ross when he saw her after some time and that was the reason for his decision.  Two days of turbulent minds?  Or two days of hard practical thinking?  For Demelza, two days of day-dreaming and amazement?

Perhaps it was exactly as WG writes it and Demelza was a suitable match for him; after all he knew a good deal more about her than he would have known about Elizabeth, had he married her.  To live together in the same house is very different from the odd meeting, which would have been orchestrated by an eagle-eyed parent or two. He knew how capable Demelza was; after 30th May, maybe he knew how desirable she was and the two together decided him.

Whatever the reasons, I agree he would have talked with her about it, because he was a fair-minded man, and way ahead of his time.  After the night of the pilchard catch, their marriage became a proper partnership - he (mostly) listened to her views, even if he later discarded them.



__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 338
Date: Jan 12 12:33 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Dark Mare wrote:

Stella Poldark wrote:

Dark Mare - I'm not sure I understand what you are saying happened on June 1st - that Ross decided to marry Demelza     and kept it to himself or, having decided he wanted to marry her that he asked her to marry him or that he told her that is what would happen? There is no information about any of this apart from his decision.

Stella


Stella -- My point is simple: This discussion of events that purportedly happened June 1 has the date wrong. Jim Carter's trial was May 30, not May 31. Everything that happened the same day as the trial happened May 30. Everything that happened the day after the trial happened May 31, not June 1. What happened June 1 is Ross decided to marry Demelza. "Ross Poldark" tells us Ross reached the decision "to marry her within two days of their first sleeping together." Although "within two days" can mean any time within 48 hours of the event that starts the clock, I take it to mean the decision was made on the second day, which was June 1. The book tells us just two things: 1.) when he completed the decision process and 2.) his thoughts explaining his decision. 

However, we can surmise a few things from what we know from elsewhere in "Ross Poldark," other books in the series and from life. Some things haven't changed. Banns are called on three Sundays before a wedding takes place, for example. June 1, 1787, was a Friday, and June 24, 1787, was a Sunday. Ross had to visit Pastor Odgers on Friday to arrange to have the banns called June 3, 10 and 17. (Coincidentally, an analogous situation occurred for Drake and Morwenna: Page 515, "The Angry Tide": Mr Odgers said: "Well, Mrs Poldark, maam, I would be happy to oblige you if there were a way within the canon laws of the church, but as you know, maam, there is none. It is Friday now. In order to convenience you, I can call the banns for the first time on Sunday, though strictly speaking, one needs more notice. But beyond that ...") 

We know the banns were called for Ross and Demelza (Page 286, "Ross Poldark": Demelza did not see her father again that year. A few days after the banns were called, she persuaded Ross to send Jud to Illogan with a verbal message that they were to be married in a fortnight.

Would Ross have gone to arrange a wedding without first securing the bride's consent? I don't think so. That means he had to have proposed (either asking or telling, take your pick) shortly after deciding he would marry her June 1.

On another point, it is possible, even likely, Ross and Demelza slept together a second time before the proposal, but basing that belief entirely on the words "their first sleeping together" is reading more into the words than may actually be there. I don't remember where I learned this, maybe some "editing for meaning"-type session or a libel seminar, but the message was: Be suspicious of the word "first." When writers use it, they don't always mean to suggest something happened more than once. 

 

 


 Dark Mare - Thank you for this. It has clarified quite a bit for me. Just so that people in the UK can find the part about the banns being read it is Page 270 in the first edition and is at the start of Book Three, chapter one. I am always surprised to learn how much I fail to retain even after reading Ross Poldark four times! The fact that banns were read makes it all the more strange that no one knew about their marriage beforehand. 

I agree with you that it is likely that Ross and Demelza slept together again the following night. I also agree that it is likely he asked Demelza to marry him out of respect if nothing else. 

There is so much in the books and I shall now make a point, in my re-reading of the later books, of looking out for more clues about past events though WG didn't always remember what he had written as we know from the discrepancies.

Stella



__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 423
Date: Jan 12 9:49 AM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Stella Poldark wrote:

Dark Mare - I'm not sure I understand what you are saying happened on June 1st - that Ross decided to marry Demelza     and kept it to himself or, having decided he wanted to marry her that he asked her to marry him or that he told her that is what would happen? There is no information about any of this apart from his decision.

Stella


Stella -- My point is simple: This discussion of events that purportedly happened June 1 has the date wrong. Jim Carter's trial was May 30, not May 31. Everything that happened the same day as the trial happened May 30. Everything that happened the day after the trial happened May 31, not June 1. What happened June 1 is Ross decided to marry Demelza. "Ross Poldark" tells us Ross reached the decision "to marry her within two days of their first sleeping together." Although "within two days" can mean any time within 48 hours of the event that starts the clock, I take it to mean the decision was made on the second day, which was June 1. The book tells us just two things: 1.) when he completed the decision process and 2.) his thoughts explaining his decision. 

However, we can surmise a few things from what we know from elsewhere in "Ross Poldark," other books in the series and from life. Some things haven't changed. Banns are called on three Sundays before a wedding takes place, for example. June 1, 1787, was a Friday, and June 24, 1787, was a Sunday. Ross had to visit Pastor Odgers on Friday to arrange to have the banns called June 3, 10 and 17. (Coincidentally, an analogous situation occurred for Drake and Morwenna: Page 515, "The Angry Tide": Mr Odgers said: "Well, Mrs Poldark, maam, I would be happy to oblige you if there were a way within the canon laws of the church, but as you know, maam, there is none. It is Friday now. In order to convenience you, I can call the banns for the first time on Sunday, though strictly speaking, one needs more notice. But beyond that ...") 

We know the banns were called for Ross and Demelza (Page 286, "Ross Poldark": Demelza did not see her father again that year. A few days after the banns were called, she persuaded Ross to send Jud to Illogan with a verbal message that they were to be married in a fortnight.

Would Ross have gone to arrange a wedding without first securing the bride's consent? I don't think so. That means he had to have proposed (either asking or telling, take your pick) shortly after deciding he would marry her June 1.

On another point, it is possible, even likely, Ross and Demelza slept together a second time before the proposal, but basing that belief entirely on the words "their first sleeping together" is reading more into the words than may actually be there. I don't remember where I learned this, maybe some "editing for meaning"-type session or a libel seminar, but the message was: Be suspicious of the word "first." When writers use it, they don't always mean to suggest something happened more than once. 

 

 



__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 338
Date: Jan 11 4:49 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Dark Mare wrote:
Mrs Gimlett wrote:

I have been thinking about Ross and Demelza's marriage.

We know about the events on May 31st and how the evening ended.  We know what happened through the day on 1st June - Elizabeth called and Demelza dreamed the day away, watching Ross cutting the hay, and snoozing in the warmth.

However, we know nothing more until we find they are suddenly married.

Now WG says that Ross decided to marry her within two days of their FIRST sleeping together.  This indicates that the night of June 1st was a repeat of the previous night.  Do you think Ross asked Demelza to marry him,  or did he tell her he was going to marry her?  Did he rush off to old Odgers to get the Banns called or did he get a licence, so that no-one would know in advance.  Since it was 3 weeks after 31st May, it would appear that Banns were called, but surely the Trenwith Poldarks, who were regulars at church, would then have known. Ross tells Francis a week before the wedding and he seems 'relieved' and surprised. 

I would love to have had more written about that time.  Were Jud and Prudie the witnesses or was it Mrs Odgers and one of their offspring? 

What do you all feel?


Jim Carter's trial, Tom Carne's visit, Demelza's decision to break out the blue dress to see where things would lead with Ross and where those things led all occurred on May 30, not May 31, according to Page 238 of "Ross Poldark.Actually, that isn't quite accurate. Page 238 said Jim's trial was May 30. All the rest of that stuff happened the same day as the trial.

May 31 was when Elizabeth made her call at Nampara.

WG wrote that Ross decided to marry Demelza within two days of their first night together so I guess that is what happened June 1. 



-- Edited by Dark Mare on Wednesday 11th of January 2017 04:38:40 PM


 Dark Mare - I'm not sure I understand what you are saying happened on June 1st - that Ross decided to marry Demelza and kept it to himself or, having decided he wanted to marry her that he asked her to marry him or that he told her that is what would happen? There is no information about any of this apart from his decision.

Stella



-- Edited by Stella Poldark on Wednesday 11th of January 2017 04:49:54 PM

__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 423
Date: Jan 11 4:34 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Mrs Gimlett wrote:

I have been thinking about Ross and Demelza's marriage.

We know about the events on May 31st and how the evening ended.  We know what happened through the day on 1st June - Elizabeth called and Demelza dreamed the day away, watching Ross cutting the hay, and snoozing in the warmth.

However, we know nothing more until we find they are suddenly married.

Now WG says that Ross decided to marry her within two days of their FIRST sleeping together.  This indicates that the night of June 1st was a repeat of the previous night.  Do you think Ross asked Demelza to marry him,  or did he tell her he was going to marry her?  Did he rush off to old Odgers to get the Banns called or did he get a licence, so that no-one would know in advance.  Since it was 3 weeks after 31st May, it would appear that Banns were called, but surely the Trenwith Poldarks, who were regulars at church, would then have known. Ross tells Francis a week before the wedding and he seems 'relieved' and surprised. 

I would love to have had more written about that time.  Were Jud and Prudie the witnesses or was it Mrs Odgers and one of their offspring? 

What do you all feel?


Jim Carter's trial, Tom Carne's visit, Demelza's decision to break out the blue dress to see where things would lead with Ross and where those things led all occurred on May 30, not May 31, according to Page 238 of "Ross Poldark.Actually, that isn't quite accurate. Page 238 said Jim's trial was May 30. All the rest of that stuff happened the same day as the trial.

May 31 was when Elizabeth made her call at Nampara.

WG wrote that Ross decided to marry Demelza within two days of their first night together so I guess that is what happened June 1. 



-- Edited by Dark Mare on Wednesday 11th of January 2017 04:38:40 PM

__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 104
Date: Jan 11 2:18 AM, 2017
Permalink  
 

The visit to Sawle Church changed more than the name of the one-time kitchen maid.

  1783-1787 (The Poldark Saga Book 1) (p. 286). 

When W.G. wrote that they were married but did not mentioned the Church. A few paragraphs later W.G. wrote this on p. 286



-- Edited by Dave on Wednesday 11th of January 2017 12:53:26 PM

__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 193
Date: Jan 2 1:00 AM, 2017
Permalink  
 

I'm not ashamed to say that I find the scene lovely and poignant.



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 135
Date: Jan 1 10:07 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

You're probably right that Elizabeth would not have sat on the floor at Ross' feet, but I doubt Elizabeth had sat on a floor anywhere -- except maybe in Geoffrey Charles' nursery -- since she was 10 years old. It isn't ladylike.

 

No, it's not.  To be honest, as a woman of the late 20th and early 21st centuries, I find the idea of Demelza or any other woman sitting at Ross' feet like that rather uncomfortable.  And patronizing on Ross' part.

 



__________________


Honorary Life Member. Forum Moderator

Status: Offline
Posts: 783
Date: Jan 1 7:27 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Ross would not have been paying Tom Carne for Demelza's work for some while.  Don't forget, at that time, young people started work very early and Ross would be paying Demelza herself from about the age of 15.  The children who worked at the mines each got their own wages.

Tom was just a selfish bully, if not by physical harm then by verbal abuse.  He was never interested in Demelza as a person, just for what he could force her to do once she was 'home'. She would become the same drudge she had been at 13, in the old days before Redruth Fair. I would be surprised if he was truly concerned about her reputation.  All his flowery talk of sin and being saved was just rhetoric he repeated - I don't suppose he had changed that much underneath.

 

Having wed Tom Carne, Mrs Chegwidden would have had to sell or close the shop.  She suddenly had 6 step-sons and a husband to look after and certainly wouldn't have time to run a shop as well.  I know Jinny Martin (Scoble) had the shop in Sawle, but that was their sole livelihood (and her children were grown up).  Carne had work in a mine.



__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 338
Date: Jan 1 5:29 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Dark Mare wrote:
Mrs Gimlett wrote:

Whatever you would like to believe about the Carne household, I cannot agree with you about their motives.  Demelza was not a beloved daughter, she was a useful tool.  He hadn't bothered about her for 3 years, except to come 10 miles to tell her he was marrying again.  When he found Nellie was pregnant, he decided Demelza could be used as free labour once again, hence the visit.


But would she be free labor? Her wages -- 2 guineas a year, right? -- were paid in advance to her father, not to her. If she leaves six months early, which her father wants her to do, won't he have to refund 1 guinea to Ross? The family will be losing 2 guineas a year in income and have to absorb her living expenses, which Ross had been paying. Yes, Demelza's labor would contribute to the family's comfort, but she would no longer be generating income.

If Nellie still owns the shop and operates it herself -- which I thought she did -- then it would be more economical to give up Demelza's wages to save the cost of paying someone else to keep house provided that person's wages cost more than 2 guineas plus Demelza's living expenses and that servant does not live with the Carnes, generating living expenses they would have to pay. Otherwise, it would be more economical to leave Demelza at Nampara and use her wages to pay the hired help.

But if as you say, the shop was sold after Tom and Nellie married, then Demelza would be doing work that otherwise Nellie would do so the family would be out Demelza's earnings plus her living expenses. Demelza would not be free labor. It would just seem that way to her. Then again, she has never seen that 2 guineas a year. 


 I believe it was guinea a year for two years but that is by the way. I am with Mrs G on this. I think the Carnes want Demelza back to do all the really hard work that they neither want to do or pay someone to do. The rumours that apparently abound about the relationship between Ross and Demelza has little, if anything, to do with his wish to have Demelza back with them.



__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 423
Date: Jan 1 4:09 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Mrs Gimlett wrote:

Whatever you would like to believe about the Carne household, I cannot agree with you about their motives.  Demelza was not a beloved daughter, she was a useful tool.  He hadn't bothered about her for 3 years, except to come 10 miles to tell her he was marrying again.  When he found Nellie was pregnant, he decided Demelza could be used as free labour once again, hence the visit.


But would she be free labor? Her wages -- 2 guineas a year, right? -- were paid in advance to her father, not to her. If she leaves six months early, which her father wants her to do, won't he have to refund 1 guinea to Ross? The family will be losing 2 guineas a year in income and have to absorb her living expenses, which Ross had been paying. Yes, Demelza's labor would contribute to the family's comfort, but she would no longer be generating income.

If Nellie still owns the shop and operates it herself -- which I thought she did -- then it would be more economical to give up Demelza's wages to save the cost of paying someone else to keep house provided that person's wages cost more than 2 guineas plus Demelza's living expenses and that servant does not live with the Carnes, generating living expenses they would have to pay. Otherwise, it would be more economical to leave Demelza at Nampara and use her wages to pay the hired help.

But if as you say, the shop was sold after Tom and Nellie married, then Demelza would be doing work that otherwise Nellie would do so the family would be out Demelza's earnings plus her living expenses. Demelza would not be free labor. It would just seem that way to her. Then again, she has never seen that 2 guineas a year. 



__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 423
Date: Jan 1 2:08 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Fijane wrote:

... I can't quite get my head around your idea of Nellie orchestrating the situation. Remembering that Demelza was out of the Carne home for four years before she married, I'm not sure that Widow Chegwidden (Nellie) had her eye on this outcome from before Demelza left. I agree that she was a strong-minded woman, and have no doubt that she turned Tom Carne to Methodism by force of personality, but I do genuinely believe that she was horrified by Demelza's situation and wanted it remedied by bringing her back to Illuggan.

... I didn't see the day after scene as Demelza recognising that Ross only had eyes for Elizabeth. I interpret it as Elizabeth coming in and realising that something has happened between Ross and Demelza, and that she has effectively lost the battle (if not the war). It is Demelza's claiming of her right - to sit at Ross's feet, where Elizabeth never would sit. To me, it strengthened Demelza's claim and made Elizabeth realise that hers was much weaker. In some ways, it was Demelza demonstrating that possession trumped fantasy.


 I guess I wasn't clear. I meant that Nellie was smart enough to recognize that the best way to stop the gossip -- her  goal -- would be to have Demelza marry Ross. (Yes, there would be different gossip, about a squire marrying his kitchen maid, but that wouldn't shame the Carne family, just the Poldark family.) Bringing Demelza back to Illugan permanently would be locking the door after the horse got out -- her reputation was already in tatters, according to her father. Bringing her home for three months to help with the forthcoming birth would give the Paynters time to let Nampara fall apart and Ross time to realize how much better his life had been with Demelza in it. Her plan was foiled by the achievement of her goal by other means. 

You are right about Elizabeth recognizing that something was going on between Ross and Demelza. But Demelza also recognized that Elizabeth was a threat. Her thoughts make that very clear. 

However, Demelza didn't sit at Ross' feet when Elizabeth was in the house. She'd been gone for probably 10 or 15 minutes, and Ross' return to the parlor had been by a circuitous route. Demelza was alone, standing at the window with her amful of blue bells, when Ross returned. He sat in his chair, said he was tired and closed his eyes. Demelza then slipped up to the chair as if she thought he was asleep, sat at his feet and began sorting her flowers. It struck me more as the act of a child feeling insecure than a woman laying claim to her man. You're probably right that Elizabeth would not have sat on the floor at Ross' feet, but I doubt Elizabeth had sat on a floor anywhere -- except maybe in Geoffrey Charles' nursery -- since she was 10 years old. It isn't ladylike. 



__________________


Honorary Life Member. Forum Moderator

Status: Offline
Posts: 783
Date: Jan 1 11:58 AM, 2017
Permalink  
 

The subject of this thread is 1st June 1787, not 31st May!

However, we need to examine the events which led to that day, without going too far off-topic.

Whatever you would like to believe about the Carne household, I cannot agree with you about their motives.  Demelza was not a beloved daughter, she was a useful tool.  He hadn't bothered about her for 3 years, except to come 10 miles to tell her he was marrying again.  When he found Nellie was pregnant, he decided Demelza could be used as free labour once again, hence the visit.

Your theory about the Aunt Chegwidden Carne does sound highly unlikely.

I cannot find any mention of Stepmother Nellie specifically having heard rumours about Ross and Demelza.  Probably the only rumours that existed circulated in the kiddleys, where she, a strict Methodist, certainly wouldn't go.  As for being a smart businesswoman, umm.  I should think it more likely her husband had owned the shop, which she had to keep going when widowed.  Perhaps her way out of running it was to marry Tom Carne. Her money most likely came from the sale of the shop. Don't forget, it wouldn't have been a fortune, she was just relatively better off than others in the neighbourhood.  She was obviously a strong woman; to reform a bully like him must have been quite a task.  However, for them to think of Demelza marrying Ross to stop rumours - plain nonsense.  Ross was a landed gentleman, whom they did not know at all.  To even think of such a union was ridiculous.  Servant girls were beneath the notice of their masters, (unless they caught the master's eye) and even then they just became mistresses, set aside then it suited. Marriage for such liaisons was extremely rare.  You have to remember we are dealing with life in the 18th Century, which was much more black and white than now; people knew their place and few were ever in a position to move up the social scale.  To the Carnes, Demelza, like them, was destined to remain on the bottom rung forever.

I think the reason Carne asked Demelza if there was 'sin' between her and Ross, was so he would have a lever to entice her home again.  But as WG writes, Demelza knew it wasn't morals he was bothered about really, it was having someone to do all the work.  For all his new-found religion, he hadn't changed fundamentally.

I would guess that rumours about Ross and Demelza grew up as a consequence of his being Joshua's son. (think of what he overhears in Trenwith library) People didn't really know Ross - he was an enigma to them - but they imagined he took after his father, hence he couldn't have a girl living in the house without taking advantage of her.

Demelza was very well aware of what people said, but hadn't examined it until confronted by her father. 

This is a passage which comes from the first edition of RP and for reasons unknown, has long since been edited out.

Demelza is meating the calves and this follows her thoughts about her father asking about sin between her and Ross.

...'They were all thinking that Ross...  Even there in the half-light of the cow stall she went red.  It was not a blush of horror but of embarrassment at their complete mistaking of the position, of her position in the household.  The idea had a fascination about it;  she had seldom before allowed herself to face it , but now she could not get it out of her head.  Her mind explored it tentatively, timidly, tried to see all the way round.

She gave a little half-scornful titter in the shadows. People were always thinking things; it was a pity they couldn't think up something more likely.  It was as impossible as turning copper to gold.  Did they think that she...that if Ross...would she then be living and breathing as a humble servant?  No.  She would be so filled with pride that everyone would know the truth without having to whisper and peer and pry.  Proud?  Yes, she would be proud.  There could be nothing but pride in knowing the attentions however by-the-way like, of a man such as Ross.  Her body crept and quickened.'

 



-- Edited by Mrs Gimlett on Sunday 1st of January 2017 02:07:13 PM

__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 193
Date: Jan 1 3:44 AM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Some interesting thoughts. I have also thought it poetic justice that Tom Carne created the very situation that he had come to stop. If he hadn't appeared, the master-servant situation would have continued (at least for the short term, who knows about later?).

I can't quite get my head around your idea of Nellie orchestrating the situation. Remembering that Demelza was out of the Carne home for four years before she married, I'm not sure that Widow Chegwidden (Nellie) had her eye on this outcome from before Demelza left. I agree that she was a strong-minded woman, and have no doubt that she turned Tom Carne to Methodism by force of personality, but I do genuinely believe that she was horrified by Demelza's situation and wanted it remedied by bringing her back to Illuggan.

In terms of Demelza's feelings around the marriage, it is important to consider that she was just seventeen. She had no clear vision of the future, including what it would be like to be married to someone who held an ideal in his mind. A seventeen-year-old girl thinks that sleeping with someone is an automatic proof of undying love - she only learns later that it might not be so.

I didn't see the day after scene as Demelza recognising that Ross only had eyes for Elizabeth. I interpret it as Elizabeth coming in and realising that something has happened between Ross and Demelza, and that she has effectively lost the battle (if not the war). It is Demelza's claiming of her right - to sit at Ross's feet, where Elizabeth never would sit. To me, it strengthened Demelza's claim and made Elizabeth realise that hers was much weaker. In some ways, it was Demelza demonstrating that possession trumped fantasy.



__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 423
Date: Dec 31 5:29 PM, 2016
Permalink  
 

Don't forget who came calling earlier in the day and why. Tom Carne came to ask Ross to release his daughter from her contract several months early because his wife was expecting a baby in August and Demelza was needed at home, however Ross was in Truro.  Tom told Demelza to give Ross the message and, if he agreed, to come home immediately. If Ross said no, he would come back Friday to see him and she was to be ready to leave then, he told her.    

Demelza was desperate to give Ross a reason to reject her father's request to let her out of her contract early. She was willing to expand her "job description" to include mistress if it would make her sufficiently indispensable to Ross. (I have always thought ironic that Demelza got that idea from Tom telling her that her stepmother had heard gossip about her and Ross in Illugan and she wanted her out of there to make it stop.) Demelza didn't want to leave Nampara because she was so happy there, but she also was certain Ross would forget she had ever been there within two weeks if she ever left. 

Demelza was under 21, the age of consent, so she needed her father's written permission if she and Ross obtained a license from the bishop, but if they had the banns called, parental permission was assumed because the law expected people to be living in the same parish their parents do and parents to have given their permission in order for the church to agree to call the banns. (I've written about this elsewhere on the site, but I forget where.) Ross never bothered to obtain Tom Carne's permission before arranging to have the banns read, which was inappropriate -- he would never have tried to marry a girl of his own class, especially one who was 17, without first asking her father for her hand. (Maybe he was afraid Papa Carne would make him wrestle for his consent, and this time, Tom would win because he is no longer drinking.) It took Demelza asking him to let her family know they were getting married to get him to send Jud to Illugan with the news. He arrived when Tom Carne was out and left the message with a plump woman dressed in black, presumably Demelza's stepmother, Nellie. 

I have always wanted to believe Nellie Carne, characterized in "Ross Poldark" as a smart businesswoman, sent Tom to Nampara to bring Demelza home because she really wanted Ross to marry their girl. If Demelza was with them, they could make marriage the only condition under which they would allow her to return to Nampara. She would have figured that three months of the Paynters without Demelza and Ross would be begging to marry her if only so he could have decent meals, clean clothes and fresh sheets again. Imagine her surprise when Ross decided he wanted to marry Demelza without the charade. I like to think the Carnes accepted Ross and Demelza's marriage because that was what they had wanted, and they didn't go to the wedding because they didn't want Demelza and Ross to realize it. 

Does that sound highly unlikely? Well, you have to remember Nellie's story. She was a prosperous, childless widow who wanted children, and she thought Tom Carne, who had fathered seven children in seven years, was a promising candidate even if he was going to be a real fixer-upper. Tom, however, was happy the way he was. He had Demelza to keep house and to care for her brothers so he had no need for a wife, especially one who would make him stop drinking and become a Methodist. But once Demelza took the job at Nampara, the way was cleared for Nellie. She quickly landed Tom and turned his life around. Does it still seem so unlikely that the woman who got Tom Carne to quit drinking, go to church and actually like it could maneuver Ross and Demelza into getting married without them even realizing it? 

I don't think Ross married Demelza out of kindness. Rather, he recognized that his life was much improved by her presence. He hadn't forgotten about Elizabeth, but he was no longer drinking himself senseless every night. He was kind to Demelza, but she was good to him and for him. She had gotten him interested in living again. I do think the rumors about them both had led him to keep a tight rein on his libido and to think of her as younger than she really was and absolutely off-limits. (He wanted no one to be able to say the apple doesn't fall far from the tree about him.)  When he discovered the "silk-mouthed stranger," who was as much Demelza as the young girl he had always known was, he had a dilemma, and the only solution that would allow him to have them both and not feel he had turned into his father was to get married. Once he realized how desirable he found her, he may also have recognized that if he didn't marry her, someone else would sooner or later, and then she would be gone from his life forever. I can imagine Ross mentally compiling a pro/con list for marrying Demelza and coming up with about 37 reasons to do so and one reason, "She's not Elizabeth," not to. 

As for Demelza's reaction to the proposal and concern about Ross not being in love with her and still being in love with Elizabeth, WG's description doesn't indicate that any of it made Demelza at all uneasy: "If Ross had not wished to marry her, she would not have fretted for something else, but his decision to make the union legal and permanent, his honoring her with his name, was a sort of golden crown to set upon her happiness. Those few bad moments when Elizabeth called were almost forgotten and altogether discarded."  Maybe it is important to remember that Demelza had been expecting to be shipped off home to Illugan so things have turned out so much better than she thought they would. She is happier than she's ever been before, and her happiness is contagious. Yes, there will be a reality check in her future, as there was the afternoon after their first night together, when she realized the happiness that had since embraced her had not similarly embraced Ross and he had eyes only for Elizabeth. But by the time that happens again, the night of the pilchards will have happened, Verity will be her friend and mentor, and she will have scored a triumph at her first Christmas celebration at Trenwith. She knows Ross is in love with her, which she didn't know when she married him. 

 





__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 193
Date: Dec 31 5:06 AM, 2016
Permalink  
 

Mrs Gimlett, I think your suppositions about Demelza are very likely to be true. I had never thought before about D having nothing to lose when she puts on the blue dress but having everything to lose after they marry.



__________________


Initiate

Status: Offline
Posts: 97
Date: Dec 30 1:17 PM, 2016
Permalink  
 

I disagree about it being out of character that Ross hit Nick Vigus. His anger against him had been simmering for a long time - since the Jim Carter business, when he was encouraging Jim to go poaching, with disastrous consequences, while he got off scott-free. Then Nick testified against him in court, blatantly lying. There was the suspicion about the informer. But the last straw was calling Demelza a scullery maid - in front of the other miners. Of course, those last two incidents didn't happen in the book, but I think they were sufficiently in keeping with the narrative that it was OK to add them in for dramatic effect. 



__________________


Honorary Life Member. Forum Moderator

Status: Offline
Posts: 783
Date: Dec 30 1:03 PM, 2016
Permalink  
 

 

I agree with you Fijane.  The TV series shows Ross to be very selfish, but at the same time he does champion the underdog.  As you say, though, in the books he is nearly always fair to fellow men, which is why I was so incensed with that scene when Ross hits one of the miners.  Book Ross would never have done that.  Yes, he was violent up to a point, but never   gratuitously, as was shown.

In my head, Ross behaves like this after 31st May.

He berates himself for allowing it to happen.  Then he decides it is not so outrageous after all, and perhaps following a second night with Demelza, he decides it would be suitable to marry her. He doesn't fancy any other woman (who is available) and as WG indicates, the more he considers it, the less ridiculous it appears.  Like you, I'm inclined to think he made the decision and then told her they would be married.  After all, she was hardly likely to refuse him! 

Bizarrely, I think this was the start of her wavering confidence.  She had been gaining in confidence for over a year, talking in the evenings to Ross and learning all the time.  Then she is suddenly faced with a new 'position', as Ross' wife, which must have been unexpected.  She knew he loved Elizabeth and it suddenly began to register that now she was his wife, she had something to lose.  Before she had nothing, other than a lowly position in the household, now she probably wondered (or knew intuitively) would he be for ever wanting Elizabeth.  That must have been hard to contain; no wonder she was uneasy about it.  I don't think we see the effects of this immediately, but she is aware from the word go of how things could be, so when the invitation to Trenwith arrives, her reaction is understandable.

 



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 193
Date: Dec 30 12:02 AM, 2016
Permalink  
 

Having said that, what is striking me in my current re-read is Ross's basic kindness. He treated everyone kindly (especially those who he considered more vulnerable) unless they gave him reason to have a poor opinion of them. So, maybe he considered it a kindness to Demelza to regularise their relationship. He may have felt that her innate honesty deserved more than a shack-up, and with Elizabeth gone, there was no reason for him not to give Demelza this kindness.

Unfortunately, in the show most of Ross's kindness has been deleted or watered down, so a viewer might not see this as an option.



-- Edited by Fijane on Friday 30th of December 2016 12:04:09 AM

__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 193
Date: Dec 29 11:56 PM, 2016
Permalink  
 

My family would have called a psychiatrist if I had put that on my list - they already think me a bit batty about it all!

I tend to think that Demelza would have initially argued a bit about marriage. She might have said "No, you don't need to do that...your family wouldn't agree..it's not for the likes of you to marry me, as long as we can be together and I stay here forever.."

She wouldn't have argued for long, though. I'd like to imagine what Ross might have said to the excuses above. Would it be a bit romantic - "You belong here now, you fit, isn't what we have done just like man and wife? I think we might do well together..." or more pragmatic "I don't want the gossip, but I like you in my bed, so I want to make it legal". I imagine it was a bit of a proposal (asking) but mostly expressed as "this is what we will do". For the first couple of years of marriage, this is basically how Ross operates. He states what should happen, Demelza protests, he shoots down every excuse and then the thing happens his way. It is the nature of their master-servant relationship, which starts to even up from the night of the Pilchards.



__________________


Honorary Life Member. Forum Moderator

Status: Offline
Posts: 783
Date: Dec 29 5:34 PM, 2016
Permalink  
 

What do you think Demelza thought of Ross' decision?  Was she surprised because she realised Ross wasn't in love with her.  Did she just go along with it because that was what Ross wanted or do you think she was proposed to?

Perhaps she had no choice, although that doesn't sit easily with what we later learn about Ross' advanced ideas of equality.  However, she was only a servant at the time and he could have easily sent her back to Illugan if she didn't fall in with his plans.  Of course, she adored Ross and most likely felt all her Christmasses had come at once when marriage was mentioned.

Come to think of it, THAT is what should have been on my Christmas list!!



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 176
Date: Dec 29 4:14 AM, 2016
Permalink  
 

Mrs Gimlett wrote:

I think it's safe to assume they married at Sawle church.  They both lived in that parish after all, and that's what determined things then.

Can't recall anything specific about their wedding in later books - must have a look.

Old Ma G


 Wasn't Revd. Mr. Odgers, the rector of Sawle church and therefore can we not assume because he performed the ceremony that it was at Sawle church that they got married?l



__________________


Honorary Life Member. Forum Moderator

Status: Offline
Posts: 783
Date: Dec 28 7:16 PM, 2016
Permalink  
 

I think it's safe to assume they married at Sawle church.  They both lived in that parish after all, and that's what determined things then.

Can't recall anything specific about their wedding in later books - must have a look.

Old Ma G



__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 338
Date: Dec 28 7:04 PM, 2016
Permalink  
 

Mrs Gimlett wrote:

I have been thinking about Ross and Demelza's marriage.

We know about the events on May 31st and how the evening ended.  We know what happened through the day on 1st June - Elizabeth called and Demelza dreamed the day away, watching Ross cutting the hay, and snoozing in the warmth.

However, we know nothing more until we find they are suddenly married.

Now WG says that Ross decided to marry her within two days of their FIRST sleeping together.  This indicates that the night of June 1st was a repeat of the previous night.  Do you think Ross asked Demelza to marry him,  or did he tell her he was going to marry her?  Did he rush off to old Odgers to get the Banns called or did he get a licence, so that no-one would know in advance.  Since it was 3 weeks after 31st May, it would appear that Banns were called, but surely the Trenwith Poldarks, who were regulars at church, would then have known. Ross tells Francis a week before the wedding and he seems 'relieved' and surprised. 

I would love to have had more written about that time.  Were Jud and Prudie the witnesses or was it Mrs Odgers and one of their offspring? 

What do you all feel?


 I, too would love to have more information about that time. I recall something in one of the later books (I cannot remember which one - perhaps The Twisted Sword or the Miller's Dance)) where reference was made to Ross having asked Demelza to marry him. This may be my imagination but I also remember being surprised by this as I'd always thought that Ross had simply announced they would be married and Demelza happily accepted. It may have been in a conversation between Demelza and one of the children. Like you, Mrs G, I have wondered where they got married and how it was that nobody knew beforehand. WG liked to deprive us of such details I think. 

Stella



__________________


Honorary Life Member. Forum Moderator

Status: Offline
Posts: 783
Date: Dec 28 5:03 PM, 2016
Permalink  
 

I have been thinking about Ross and Demelza's marriage.

We know about the events on May 31st and how the evening ended.  We know what happened through the day on 1st June - Elizabeth called and Demelza dreamed the day away, watching Ross cutting the hay, and snoozing in the warmth.

However, we know nothing more until we find they are suddenly married.

Now WG says that Ross decided to marry her within two days of their FIRST sleeping together.  This indicates that the night of June 1st was a repeat of the previous night.  Do you think Ross asked Demelza to marry him,  or did he tell her he was going to marry her?  Did he rush off to old Odgers to get the Banns called or did he get a licence, so that no-one would know in advance.  Since it was 3 weeks after 31st May, it would appear that Banns were called, but surely the Trenwith Poldarks, who were regulars at church, would then have known. Ross tells Francis a week before the wedding and he seems 'relieved' and surprised. 

I would love to have had more written about that time.  Were Jud and Prudie the witnesses or was it Mrs Odgers and one of their offspring? 

What do you all feel?



__________________
Page 1 of 1  sorted by
 
Quick Reply

Please log in to post quick replies.