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Post Info TOPIC: Following the money at Wheal Grace


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Date: Jan 1 9:41 AM, 2017
RE: Following the money at Wheal Grace
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Fijane wrote:

... A bit like Elizabeth's later attitude to Morwenna and Drake, where she simply overrode their preferences, dismissing them as childish.


I wonder whether Elizabeth secretly envied Morwenna and Drake their happily ever after. God knows they had earned it. 



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Date: Jan 1 9:19 AM, 2017
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Fijane wrote:

I think you are absolutely correct. The only thing I wonder was, did Joshua's comments put the idea in Charles' head, or were Charles and Mrs Chynoweth already moving in that direction. I imagine that the Chynoweths considered Elizabeth's attachment for Ross as puppy love, not to be taken seriously. A bit like Elizabeth's later attitude to Morwenna and Drake, where she simply overrode their preferences, dismissing them as childish.



-- Edited by Fijane on Sunday 1st of January 2017 03:49:48 AM



-- Edited by Fijane on Sunday 1st of January 2017 03:50:47 AM


I think the Chynoweths were afraid it wasn't just puppy love, at least on Ross' side, and that is why they didn't want to risk waiting for it to burn itself out. Think about Ross in a more modern context. He's a trailer for "Why Him?" minus the tech fortune. No way did they want their perfect little princess shackled to him for life. 



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Date: Jan 1 3:49 AM, 2017
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I think you are absolutely correct. The only thing I wonder was, did Joshua's comments put the idea in Charles' head, or were Charles and Mrs Chynoweth already moving in that direction. I imagine that the Chynoweths considered Elizabeth's attachment for Ross as puppy love, not to be taken seriously. A bit like Elizabeth's later attitude to Morwenna and Drake, where she simply overrode their preferences, dismissing them as childish.



-- Edited by Fijane on Sunday 1st of January 2017 03:49:48 AM



-- Edited by Fijane on Sunday 1st of January 2017 03:50:47 AM

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Date: Dec 31 10:26 PM, 2016
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Mrs Gimlett wrote:

My guess is that Charles was so indigent he didn't bother to read Joshua's Will.  I know Joshua actually told him about Verity, but Charles wasn't really listening to him.  His mind, although not particularly agile, was working on the idea of Francis being introduced to Elizabeth Chynoweth.


Did you get the feeling that there had been some secret matchmaking done by Charles William and Joan Chynoweth, and Francis and Elizabeth really didn't stand a chance of avoiding a wedding no matter how much they both cared about Ross? 

I'm sure good old Joan was the one who told Jonathan to slither out of any negotiations with Joshua Poldark Involving any marriage between Ross and Elizabeth. There was no way she was going to spend her golden years living at Nampara. That cliff was too close to the house for her liking, and she didn't trust that Ross.

When you think about it, Francis kinda followed Ross' lead where women were concerned. He married Elizabeth, Ross' first choice; he had an affair with Margaret Cartland, the prostitute Ross hooked up with after that disastrous ball; and the day he died, he told Demelza, "I don't wonder that Ross loves you. For I could do so myself." I don't mean he actually had designs on Demelza. Rather, he respected Ross' taste. 



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Date: Dec 31 9:41 PM, 2016
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Mrs Gimlett wrote:

The Prologue is often overlooked I feel.  In fact, last year I was quite disappointed the TV series omitted it - to my mind it would have been a far better introduction than a scuffle in America, which was entirely the product of DHs imagination. 

 


 Mrs. Gimlett,

I agree, but I guess Debbie Horsfield wanted to establish what a frat boy Ross was when he got to Virginia, and how quickly he turned that around once the enemy was shooting at him and his men. 



-- Edited by Dark Mare on Saturday 31st of December 2016 09:43:49 PM

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Date: Dec 28 7:09 PM, 2016
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The Prologue is often overlooked I feel.  In fact, last year I was quite disappointed the TV series omitted it - to my mind it would have been a far better introduction than a scuffle in America, which was entirely the product of DHs imagination. 

 



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Date: Dec 27 4:32 PM, 2016
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Mrs Gimlett wrote:

My guess is that Charles was so indigent he didn't bother to read Joshua's Will.  I know Joshua actually told him about Verity, but Charles wasn't really listening to him.  His mind, although not particularly agile, was working on the idea of Francis being introduced to Elizabeth Chynoweth.


 I'm so glad you wrote that. I couldn't remember where I'd gotten the idea that Charles William had pushed Francis in Elizabeth's direction. It was in the prologue of "Ross Poldark," of course. 



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Date: Dec 23 2:07 PM, 2016
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My guess is that Charles was so indigent he didn't bother to read Joshua's Will.  I know Joshua actually told him about Verity, but Charles wasn't really listening to him.  His mind, although not particularly agile, was working on the idea of Francis being introduced to Elizabeth Chynoweth.



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Date: Dec 23 12:54 AM, 2016
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We've already had this debate. Neither Trenwith nor Nampara was entailed. The Poldark men weren't complete Neanderthals. (According to Joshua's will, detailed in the Prologue, Verity was to inherit Nampara if Ross did not survived the American war. Well, maybe Charles was a bit of unenlightened. He knew Verity was the backup heir and there was a chance Ross had died in America, but he did nothing about the Paynters letting the place go to pot. I wonder whether he ever told Verity that Nampara would be hers if Ross did not return. If she didn't move into it, she could sell it. Mr. Trencrom probably would love to own a coastal property with two beaches and a cove, plus a cave and a derelict mine that could be used as caches.)



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Date: Dec 22 11:15 PM, 2016
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Trenwith may well have been entailed.



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Date: Dec 22 10:42 PM, 2016
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Mrs Gimlett wrote:

I am sorry to be pedantic, Dark Mare, but there was no Trust for Geoffrey Charles.  Francis put his money into Wheal Grace (from George, as you say), in his son's name so that George couldn't meddle in the business.

After Francis drowned, Elizabeth and Ross were both executors for Francis, and obviously Ross felt he should help Elizabeth with her financial affairs as well as keeping her up to speed on the progress or otherwise of the mine. Hence his weekly visits.

When Caroline so generously took on Ross' debt, he decided the £600 Francis had invested in Wheal Grace could be repaid to Elizabeth by a similar method. For this, as you say, he had to sell his last shares in Leisure.  He is quite clear the money is for her, not Geoffrey Charles.  It is to 'enormously ease their immediate position' (Ross' words). 

I have always disliked how Elizabeth played George off against Ross, each of them helping her financially, but only she knew the whole story. And all because she wanted both of them to think well of her!  For George of course, it was peanuts, but Ross put his own family in jeopardy in order to help her.  It was a selfless, quite foolish act.


I do not remember seeing Francis' will quoted in full in "Warleggan" so I can't be sure that a trust existed or did not. However, the job of executor ends at the completion of probate (at least in this country), but the property is in the name of Geoffrey Charles, a minor, so it has to protected in some way after probate. I seem to recall multiple references to Ross and Elizabeth as co-trustees, but only one to them as co-executors.  

I took "to 'enormously ease their immediate position' (Ross' words)" to mean to pay for repairs to the house needed to make it more habitable (fixing, say, broken windows, leaks in the roof, problems with chimneys, etc.), to feed and clothe Geoffrey Charles and to pay off Francis' pressing debts. (The Warleggans have already agreed to wait for their money.)

I completely agree about Elizabeth, but I don't think she had many friends so she worked hard to keep the two she did have. It also occurs to me that she put up with the two snarling dogs (Ross and George) because she knew her father was an idiot and couldn't be depended on to give her good advice. She wasn't as clever as Demelza, who cultivated Sir John Trevaunance, a childless widower, as an adviser. Free advice without snide asides, and she even got gifts of peaches. 

I have always suspected that Demelza made friends of Sir John and Sir Hugh Bodrugan, both magistrates, because of what happened to Jim Carter. She took to heart what Ross had said about why he failed in court and set out to make sure it never happened again on her watch. If Ross wouldn't or couldn't make friends of the more powerful people in their sphere, she would for the sake of their less well-connected friends and neighbors. 

 



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Date: Dec 22 5:22 PM, 2016
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I am sorry to be pedantic, Dark Mare, but there was no Trust for Geoffrey Charles.  Francis put his money into Wheal Grace (from George, as you say), in his son's name so that George couldn't meddle in the business.

After Francis drowned, Elizabeth and Ross were both executors for Francis, and obviously Ross felt he should help Elizabeth with her financial affairs as well as keeping her up to speed on the progress or otherwise of the mine. Hence his weekly visits.

When Caroline so generously took on Ross' debt, he decided the £600 Francis had invested in Wheal Grace could be repaid to Elizabeth by a similar method. For this, as you say, he had to sell his last shares in Leisure.  He is quite clear the money is for her, not Geoffrey Charles.  It is to 'enormously ease their immediate position' (Ross' words). 

I have always disliked how Elizabeth played George off against Ross, each of them helping her financially, but only she knew the whole story. And all because she wanted both of them to think well of her!  For George of course, it was peanuts, but Ross put his own family in jeopardy in order to help her.  It was a selfless, quite foolish act.



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Date: Dec 22 11:25 AM, 2016
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Dark Mare wrote:


My point was the money began with George, not that it ended there. The way I really look at it, George unwittingly financed Ross' acquisition of Wheal Grace. When he gave Francis £1200 -- £600 of which immediately went to pay down his debt to the bank so Francis never saw it, and £600 of which was brought to Trenwith and presented to Francis in Elizabeth's presence -- he was reimbursing Francis his gambling losses. (I seem to recall reading in "Demelza" that only a few pigeons were completely plucked by Matthew Sanson so the Warleggan family decided to reimburse them, hoping it would keep them quiet.) That £600 going into Wheal Grace enabled Ross to delay selling his remaining shares of Wheal Leisure, allowing him to collect a dividend that was the only reliable income he had. Then once he sold the remaining Wheal Leisure shares to buy Geoffrey Charles out of Wheal Grace, he owned the whole mine and Geoffrey Charles' trust had Francis' money back. As for the extra £75 from the sale of the second block of Wheal Leisure shares, that went to buy coal for the engine at Wheal Grace. The garters, toy, fabric and neckties cost nowhere near £75. Ross probably bought them with his change from the coal purchase.

The money Elizabeth received from Ross belonged to Geoffrey Charles, not to her. She could use it only to support Geoffrey Charles or to maintain the residence he was to inherit when he came of age. If she turned it over to George, it was still Geoffrey Charles' money, not George's, just as Trenwith was Geoffrey Charles' estate, not George's. (On this score Ross really let Francis down. I think as the co-trustee of Francis' estate, he should have gone to Trenwith immediately upon hearing of Elizabeth's engagement, but to find out whether she had signed any kind of marriage agreement yet, not to throw a tantrum. There was trust business that should have been taken care of before Elizabeth signed anything.) 


 Well clarified Dark Mare! 



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Date: Dec 22 2:27 AM, 2016
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Stella Poldark wrote:
Fijane wrote:

I might be wrong, but that third 600 (sorry, don't know how to do pounds on my keyboard) didn't go into Grace. It was given to Elizabeth, who presumably used it to support Trenwith in the time between Ross giving it and her marriage to George. Even if it remained intact it would have gone into George's pocket after the marriage. So effectively, that was George's money (for Leisure) which either was spent on Trenwith (George's future home) or into his own coffers.

It certainly seems that Ross's eventual luck with mines, meant that George's luck ran out. But I like to think it was karma - treat your people well and put them before profit, and eventually you will succeed in your ventures. In books, anyway.smile


 There is no suggestion that I recall of the third £600 finding its way to George. It was meant for Elizabeth to maintain some of her standard of living and she must have spent at least some of it before her wedding. The £75 left over was spent by Ross on garters for Demelza, a toy for Jeremy, neckties for John Gimlett and himself and some material for Mrs Gimlett.


My point was the money began with George, not that it ended there. The way I really look at it, George unwittingly financed Ross' acquisition of Wheal Grace. When he gave Francis £1200 -- £600 of which immediately went to pay down his debt to the bank so Francis never saw it, and £600 of which was brought to Trenwith and presented to Francis in Elizabeth's presence -- he was reimbursing Francis his gambling losses. (I seem to recall reading in "Demelza" that only a few pigeons were completely plucked by Matthew Sanson so the Warleggan family decided to reimburse them, hoping it would keep them quiet.) That £600 going into Wheal Grace enabled Ross to delay selling his remaining shares of Wheal Leisure, allowing him to collect a dividend that was the only reliable income he had. Then once he sold the remaining Wheal Leisure shares to buy Geoffrey Charles out of Wheal Grace, he owned the whole mine and Geoffrey Charles' trust had Francis' money back. As for the extra £75 from the sale of the second block of Wheal Leisure shares, that went to buy coal for the engine at Wheal Grace. The garters, toy, fabric and neckties cost nowhere near £75. Ross probably bought them with his change from the coal purchase.

The money Elizabeth received from Ross belonged to Geoffrey Charles, not to her. She could use it only to support Geoffrey Charles or to maintain the residence he was to inherit when he came of age. If she turned it over to George, it was still Geoffrey Charles' money, not George's, just as Trenwith was Geoffrey Charles' estate, not George's. (On this score Ross really let Francis down. I think as the co-trustee of Francis' estate, he should have gone to Trenwith immediately upon hearing of Elizabeth's engagement, but to find out whether she had signed any kind of marriage agreement yet, not to throw a tantrum. There was trust business that should have been taken care of before Elizabeth signed anything.) 



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Date: Dec 21 10:14 PM, 2016
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Fijane wrote:

I might be wrong, but that third 600 (sorry, don't know how to do pounds on my keyboard) didn't go into Grace. It was given to Elizabeth, who presumably used it to support Trenwith in the time between Ross giving it and her marriage to George. Even if it remained intact it would have gone into George's pocket after the marriage. So effectively, that was George's money (for Leisure) which either was spent on Trenwith (George's future home) or into his own coffers.

It certainly seems that Ross's eventual luck with mines, meant that George's luck ran out. But I like to think it was karma - treat your people well and put them before profit, and eventually you will succeed in your ventures. In books, anyway.smile


 There is no suggestion that I recall of the third £600 finding its way to George. It was meant for Elizabeth to maintain some of her standard of living and she must have spent at least some of it before her wedding. The £75 left over was spent by Ross on garters for Demelza, a toy for Jeremy, neckties for John Gimlett and himself and some material for Mrs Gimlett.



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Date: Dec 21 8:45 PM, 2016
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I might be wrong, but that third 600 (sorry, don't know how to do pounds on my keyboard) didn't go into Grace. It was given to Elizabeth, who presumably used it to support Trenwith in the time between Ross giving it and her marriage to George. Even if it remained intact it would have gone into George's pocket after the marriage. So effectively, that was George's money (for Leisure) which either was spent on Trenwith (George's future home) or into his own coffers.

It certainly seems that Ross's eventual luck with mines, meant that George's luck ran out. But I like to think it was karma - treat your people well and put them before profit, and eventually you will succeed in your ventures. In books, anyway.smile



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Date: Dec 21 12:39 PM, 2016
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Are you trying to make us feel sorry for George? Won't work!no



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Date: Dec 21 11:56 AM, 2016
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Is it any wonder that George Warleggan wanted to get his sticky fingers on Wheal Grace? When you think about it, all of the major investments in that mine had originated in George's pocket.

£600 -- Ross' initial investment, which came from the sale of half of his shares of Wheal Leisure to George

£600 -- Francis' initial investment, which was the money George reimbursed him after his cousin was unmasked as a card cheat

£600 -- The money Ross paid Elizabeth for Francis' share of the mine, which came from the sales of his remaining Leisure shares to George for £675

  £75 -- The portion of the money received from selling Ross' final shares of Wheal Leisure that didn't go to Elizabeth

The £100 Captain Henshawe put up, the £250 loan repaid by Harry Blewitt and the £100 Blewitt later lent Ross helped, of course, but it was George's £1,875 that got Ross started and later made Ross the sole owner of Grace. 

Yes, George did end up with all of Ross' Wheal Leisure shares, but he later abandoned the mine without ever knowing that he was sitting on the Trevorgie lode. Thanks to Jeremy's desire to test his talents as an engine designer, Wheal Leisure ended up under Poldark control again in time for Ben Carter to stumble upon the Trevorgie works. No wonder George is a little bitter.



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