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Post Info TOPIC: Rape/Not Rape TV Series


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Date: Dec 4 1:14 AM, 2016
Rape/Not Rape TV Series
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I vote for rape.  Judging from what I had seen, if Elizabeth had not consented at the last moment, he would have raped her anyway.

 

In the novel and the 1975 series, I believe it was an out and out case of rape.



-- Edited by LJones41 on Sunday 4th of December 2016 01:15:32 AM



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Date: Dec 3 11:55 PM, 2016
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MrsMartin wrote:
Dark Mare wrote:

Exactly. 

However, it doesn't turn Ross into a good guy. His behavior cannot be excused. In "The Twisted Sword," he summed up what he was feeling that night as rage, lust and frustration and that squares better with his conduct than his earlier description of it as the result of "a devotion that on my end had lasted 10 years." (How I wished Demelza had snapped back, "Devotion? Ten years of coveting your neighbor's wife is just a sin, Ross.")


 I never said that Ross was a good guy or that I excused his behaviour. I am only stating what I saw on the screen and nothing more, as this is a thread about how it was shown in this adaptation. In fact this is one of the few parts of this production that I thought they got right.


I agree 100%. I think DH and Co got this scene so right. I was surprised and relieved. Which makes it all the more infuriating that she got the rest of it so wrong.



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Date: Dec 3 11:45 PM, 2016
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Dark Mare wrote:

Exactly. 

However, it doesn't turn Ross into a good guy. His behavior cannot be excused. In "The Twisted Sword," he summed up what he was feeling that night as rage, lust and frustration and that squares better with his conduct than his earlier description of it as the result of "a devotion that on my end had lasted 10 years." (How I wished Demelza had snapped back, "Devotion? Ten years of coveting your neighbor's wife is just a sin, Ross.")


 I never said that Ross was a good guy or that I excused his behaviour. I am only stating what I saw on the screen and nothing more, as this is a thread about how it was shown in this adaptation. In fact this is one of the few parts of this production that I thought they got right.



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Date: Dec 3 11:18 PM, 2016
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MrsMartin wrote:
Dark Mare wrote:
 

 Actually, the definition of rape has to be what society thinks it is because rape is a crime, and society, through its elected representatives, makes the laws that define crimes and the punishments they will carry. 

 


 The definition of rape can be what society thinks but only the parties involve can decide if it is consensual or non-consensual. In this production we see Elizabeth kissing Ross back, then we see the morning after and her postponing her wedding. Judging from her actions and reactions, it can be inferred that the act was consensual, therefore not rape.

 


Exactly. 

However, it doesn't turn Ross into a good guy. His behavior cannot be excused. In "The Twisted Sword," he summed up what he was feeling that night as rage, lust and frustration and that squares better with his conduct than his earlier description of it as the result of "a devotion which on my side lasted 10 years." (How I wished Demelza had snapped back, "Devotion? Ten years of coveting your neighbor's wife is just a sin, Ross.")

Elizabeth just made the best of a bad situation and gave herself permission to seize the opportunity to find out whether she truly did love Ross. She didn't have to feel guilty about hurting the woman who had saved her son's life because she didn't initiate the encounter. Ross wronged them both, right? Anyway, that's what she's telling herself. 



-- Edited by Dark Mare on Saturday 3rd of December 2016 11:50:50 PM



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Date: Dec 3 1:58 PM, 2016
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Dark Mare wrote:
 

 Actually, the definition of rape has to be what society thinks it is because rape is a crime, and society, through its elected representatives, makes the laws that define crimes and the punishments they will carry. 

 


 The definition of rape can be what society thinks but only the parties involve can decide if it is consensual or non-consensual. In this production we see Elizabeth kissing Ross back, then we see the morning after and her postponing her wedding. Judging from her actions and reactions, it can be inferred that the act was consensual, therefore not rape.

 



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Date: Dec 3 1:17 PM, 2016
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MrsMartin wrote:

I think we should put it to a vote.  I'm in the no column. 

The definition of rape should not be what society thinks it is but what the parties involve think it is. Judging from Elizabeth's immediate reactions after that night, I do not believe it was rape.


 Actually, the definition of rape has to be what society thinks it is because rape is a crime, and society, through its elected representatives, makes the laws that define crimes and the punishments they will carry. 

 

As for my vote: In the series, once Elizabeth started kissing Ross back, it became a "no." He had already made his intentions clear when he threw/pushed her onto her bed and said, "and neither would you." She knew this was not just horizontal necking so if she returned his kiss, she was declaring herself all in. 

"Warleggan" was different. We never "saw" the actual scene. We saw only the prelude to it, and the only thing that Elizabeth said that could suggest anything approaching willingness was this:

"What would you suggest for me, Ross? Thirty years of widowhood and loneliness? I might well live thirty years. Is that what you ask for the mistakes Ive already made? Can you offer me anything else to hope for?" 

Maybe that was a rather bald hint that a proposal of marriage -- or any other form of permanent union -- from him would be immediately accepted, but maybe it is just a taunt. What it was not was consent -- especially to a one-night stand, which was all Ross was looking for. How do I know? Because he didn't answer her question. He just studied her face. Then he said he would leave if she would tell him whether she loved George. She said yes. Wrong answer. Do I believe he would have left if she had said no? Not really, but if he gave her trouble, she would have been able to remind him that he wasn't in love with Demelza when he married her. How did she know? Remember, she stumbled into Nampara the day after their first night together and Ross had eyes only for her even after Demelza walked into the room. Elizabeth knew instantly from looking at Demelza that the relationship had changed -- and that Demelza had just realized that it hadn't changed as much as she thought it had. Elizabeth couldn't wait to leave. 



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Date: Dec 1 6:34 PM, 2016
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Fijane wrote:

I saw clear evidence in the show that it was consensual, possibly more than in the books. I'm firmly in the no camp.

I prefer historical drama to not be sanitised to suit modern attitudes.


 I agree.  I don't want it sanitized for the modern sensibilities.  Although I believe it was consensual, Ross regretted doing it.  It wasn't a "good thing."  Sometimes people we like do stupid, bad things.



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Date: Dec 1 7:15 AM, 2016
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I saw clear evidence in the show that it was consensual, possibly more than in the books. I'm firmly in the no camp.

I prefer historical drama to not be sanitised to suit modern attitudes.



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Date: Dec 1 12:26 AM, 2016
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Surprisingly, for me, May 9th is one of the few scenes where I think DH and Co. did a great job. It is not black and white.  It requires the reader/viewer to pay attention and think critically. I have many complaints about this series, but I think this scene did the text justice. 



-- Edited by JanetMaison on Friday 2nd of December 2016 06:37:44 AM



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Date: Nov 30 10:02 AM, 2016
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Please remember this thread has been created under the TV SERIES title



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Date: Nov 30 9:18 AM, 2016
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JanetMaison wrote:
MrsMartin wrote:

I think we should put it to a vote.  I'm in the no column.

The definition of rape should not be what society thinks it is but what the parties involve think it is. Judging from Elizabeth's immediate reactions after that night, I do not believe it was rape.


I agree with you for all of the reasons you - as well as Dark Mare, Mrs. Gimlett and Stella and I - have listed in other posts. The authority is the text, and there is ample evidence in Warleggan and other books that Ross regrets what he did and it was not rape. We cannot judge these events with modern conventions. 



-- Edited by JanetMaison on Wednesday 30th of November 2016 06:06:18 AM


 The point is how it was portrayed - which can be judged by modern standards. While the authority is the text, most of the TV audience won't have read the books. What is annoying about it is that it needed so little to make it clearly consensual - and, I would argue, that would have been equally if not more dramatic. 



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Date: Nov 30 6:05 AM, 2016
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MrsMartin wrote:

I think we should put it to a vote.  I'm in the no column.

The definition of rape should not be what society thinks it is but what the parties involve think it is. Judging from Elizabeth's immediate reactions after that night, I do not believe it was rape.


I agree with you for all of the reasons you - as well as Dark Mare, Mrs. Gimlett and Stella and I - have listed in other posts. The authority is the text, and there is ample evidence in Warleggan and other books that Ross regrets what he did and it was not rape. We cannot judge these events with modern conventions. 



-- Edited by JanetMaison on Wednesday 30th of November 2016 06:06:18 AM



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Date: Nov 30 3:27 AM, 2016
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I think we should put it to a vote.  I'm in the no column.

The definition of rape should not be what society thinks it is but what the parties involve think it is. Judging from Elizabeth's immediate reactions after that night, I do not believe it was rape.

 



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Date: Nov 29 8:03 PM, 2016
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I had quite an argument on Facebook about this, with a bunch of True Fanatics! Mostly big fans of Aidan Turner, who could do no wrong even as a fictional character.

Part of my argument was about the "oh, you're looking at it in the present day context" thing. Well sorry, but we are in the present day, when issues of consent are looming very large. And the producers were claiming all over the place that it was "consensual." Well, sorry, but if you have to tell me that I might think you know it was too close to the line. And it would have been so very easy to just nudge it a fraction to make it clear that it was consensual - a breathy "Oh Ross" before they hit the bed. It wouldn't have spoiled the tension. Instead it played into that whole myth about "no means maybe, maybe means yes." 

So no, I don't think it was rape - knowing the context and the characters. And I give them props for the "morning after the night before" bit. I just think they could have been a little more careful. The mere fact that there has been so much discussion about it indicates that. And I do so hope it wasn't their intention to stir up controversy for the sake of publicity. 

 



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Date: Nov 29 7:46 PM, 2016
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May 9th. Was it rape or not rape?  Discuss amongst yourselves here. 



-- Edited by JanetMaison on Tuesday 29th of November 2016 10:57:15 PM



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