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Post Info TOPIC: Final Episode - series 2


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Date: Nov 13 3:28 PM, 2016
RE: Final Episode - series 2
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Stella - yes, no apology at all. And I love the apology in the book. It's one of my favorite parts. He gets it. He knows how much he hurts her. And she needed that (and I needed it, too).  It was so satisfying and meaningful.  Not the soap opera garbage we ended up with on TV. It's so disappointing that DH decided to take a different turn.



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Date: Nov 13 10:54 AM, 2016
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JanetMaison wrote:
MrsMartin wrote:

A deleted scene from the final episode. I'm not sure I like this one either. Demelza is just to bitter for my taste.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SikXVNDCQDI


 Well, that is interesting. At least it's some of the original text, even though not the original spirit.


 I watched this and thought that if Debbie H had somehow crafted parts of it all together we could have watched something much closer to the book. The end of Warleggan is very important to get right as it is the start of a reconciliation. To some extent I wondered right at the end if a reconciliation was possible and that is not how the book left me feeling with Demelza owning some part in the state of their relationship. What is missing that should have been included is I think  Ross saying "And there's one other thing I want you to know. That is how deeply sorry I am that I ever hurt you in the first place---in May, I mean. You were so undeserving of any harm. All these months...I know how you will have felt. I want you to know that. If you had gone off with McNeill I should have had only myself to blame." 

In episode 10 Ross says nothing at all along these lines and yet it is what finally touches Demelza.

Stella



-- Edited by Stella Poldark on Sunday 13th of November 2016 10:55:42 AM

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Date: Nov 13 4:43 AM, 2016
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MrsMartin wrote:

A deleted scene from the final episode. I'm not sure I like this one either. Demelza is just to bitter for my taste.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SikXVNDCQDI


 Well, that is interesting. At least it's some of the original text, even though not the original spirit.



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Date: Nov 13 2:57 AM, 2016
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A deleted scene from the final episode. I'm not sure I like this one either. Demelza is just to bitter for my taste.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SikXVNDCQDI



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Date: Nov 9 10:56 PM, 2016
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Fijane wrote:
LJones41 wrote:

Sometimes, I wonder if people tend to view the 1970s version with rose-colored glasses.  Frankly, I found as much to complain about - especially its adaptation of the "Warleggan" novel - as this new adaptation.


I think you and Mrs Gimlett are both right. I think there was more to complain about the 1975 series, and possibly that is why expectations for this series were so high, especially when DH proclaimed that she was going to stick closely to the books. Many people saw it as the chance to right all the wrongs done before. After such a promising start, the decline over the past few episodes (and the prospect of worse to come) has been particularly disappointing.


I think we had high expectations for the show because DH herself repeatedly stated that her intention was to honor the books, as opposed to the 1970s series.  Our disappointment is so acute because we believed her and we had evidence in Series 1.



-- Edited by JanetMaison on Wednesday 9th of November 2016 11:39:35 PM

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Date: Nov 9 9:05 PM, 2016
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Mrs Gimlett wrote:

I am not really qualified to comment on the 70s series, since I have only seen a very small amount.

However, the reason it is thought of with such nostalgia, I venture to suggest, is because it was quite innovative for its time.  Shooting in Cornwall, and highlighting the county was something new.  Also, there was little choice on TV in those days and a 'swashbuckling' old Cornish tale of smuggling and mayhem caught the public imagination.

Even though I loathed the way Demelza was portrayed (which is why I didn't want to continue watching), I must admit when I read the books I imagine Robin Ellis as Ross; mainly because he tallied so well with the book's description of him. Having first read the books in the sixties, he was pretty close to what I had imagined anyway.

 


 

 

Yeah, I now admit that I had hoped the same and was promptly disappointed - especially with how Horsfield handled the adaptation of "Warleggan".  From now on, I'll just continue watching and won't bother to expect much.



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Date: Nov 9 5:57 AM, 2016
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LJones41 wrote:

Sometimes, I wonder if people tend to view the 1970s version with rose-colored glasses.  Frankly, I found as much to complain about - especially its adaptation of the "Warleggan" novel - as this new adaptation.


I think you and Mrs Gimlett are both right. I think there was more to complain about the 1975 series, and possibly that is why expectations for this series were so high, especially when DH proclaimed that she was going to stick closely to the books. Many people saw it as the chance to right all the wrongs done before. After such a promising start, the decline over the past few episodes (and the prospect of worse to come) has been particularly disappointing.



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I am not really qualified to comment on the 70s series, since I have only seen a very small amount.

However, the reason it is thought of with such nostalgia, I venture to suggest, is because it was quite innovative for its time.  Shooting in Cornwall, and highlighting the county was something new.  Also, there was little choice on TV in those days and a 'swashbuckling' old Cornish tale of smuggling and mayhem caught the public imagination.

Even though I loathed the way Demelza was portrayed (which is why I didn't want to continue watching), I must admit when I read the books I imagine Robin Ellis as Ross; mainly because he tallied so well with the book's description of him. Having first read the books in the sixties, he was pretty close to what I had imagined anyway.

 



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Date: Nov 8 6:19 PM, 2016
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Sometimes, I wonder if people tend to view the 1970s version with rose-colored glasses.  Frankly, I found as much to complain about - especially its adaptation of the "Warleggan" novel - as this new adaptation.



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Date: Nov 8 5:57 PM, 2016
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Mrs Gimlett wrote:

Stella, I think there were 16 episodes in the first four books done in 1970s.  The second series comprised 13 episodes.  Despite there being more time this time around, I have been told there has just been more of the action/riding across cliffs type filming, rather than including more storylines.  My informant tells me that the 70s adaptation was more leisurely than this one. It developed at a slower rate.  She adds that it doesn't mean nothing happened!  There was plenty of action, just of a different type.


Thank you for this information Mrs G. It is interesting and will motivate me to watch the 1970s version again. I have watched the 1970s version only once but I recall there was not much of Cornwall in it, much of it being filmed in studios. It did seem to develop more slowly but I still got a feeling in places of things being rushed. I am seriously thinking I will write to Mammoth even though it will make no difference. I want to express my disappointment as well as to comment on the aspects I liked. Also I want to point out the things that could have been left out so that more of the important parts of the books could have been included. Ultimately of course it is DH's baby and as she grows in confidence I think it will move even further from the books and will still have an inadequate number of episodes. If anyone wants to feed into this I shall try to include it but I shall be drawing on some of the comments already posted here although writing as an individual. 

Stella



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Date: Nov 8 4:49 PM, 2016
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Stella, I think there were 16 episodes in the first four books done in 1970s.  The second series comprised 13 episodes.  Despite there being more time this time around, I have been told there has just been more of the action/riding across cliffs type filming, rather than including more storylines.  My informant tells me that the 70s adaptation was more leisurely than this one. It developed at a slower rate.  She adds that it doesn't mean nothing happened!  There was plenty of action, just of a different type.



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Date: Nov 8 3:03 PM, 2016
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LJones41 wrote:

I was thinking back to the Andrew Davies version of Pride and Prejudice where the BBC had the luxury of 12 episodes (or was it more?) for one book.

 

 

"Pride and Prejudice" (1995) had six episodes.


 Oops! It seems I was wrong. My memory is of endless episodes. It is still 4 episodes more than the first series of Poldark and 2 more than the second. I think this would have made a significant difference to the productions.



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Date: Nov 7 11:34 PM, 2016
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I was thinking back to the Andrew Davies version of Pride and Prejudice where the BBC had the luxury of 12 episodes (or was it more?) for one book.

 

 

"Pride and Prejudice" (1995) had six episodes.



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Date: Nov 7 10:43 PM, 2016
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Mrs Gimlett wrote:

Well, it's all over for a few months.  I wonder what you all thought?

For me, it ended slightly better than I feared, considering all the column inches written about it.

However.

I do feel that by changing both Ross and Demelza's characters the team have betrayed WGs painstaking work.  He wrote those books, building up the characters with great care, making sure that, although they were by no means perfect, they never became caricatures of themselves, as he himself said, 'they grew organically'.  WG grew to love Demelza, partly, I imagine, because he based her loosely on his wife in the first place; and as he didn't like Angharad's Demelza (also too fiery and feisty), I don't think he would like the way on-screen Demelza is developing now.

You would think they might have learned from the 1970s adaptation and WGs reaction to it.

The ending last night could so have easily been reproduced as per book, had not Debbie Horsfield written Demelza as shrewish and unforgiving. It is one of THE scenes of the whole book as far as I am concerned (and quite dramatic enough!).  I just longed to see the look of concern on Demelza's face when Ross returned from Trenwith after his tussle with George and him realising she still felt something for him.  I believe they are portrayed as too black and white.  Perhaps the team think the audience cannot cope with nuance and subtlety, but surely it is those very ingredients which draw us to that couple.

We all knew Ross wouldn't sign that indenture to the army - why invent it at all when there is so much material in the books to choose from?  If as I have read today, Demelza is going to become even more 'feisty', they definitely are heading in the wrong direction in my view.  According to DH, she is looking at the story from the 21st century point of view.  I have always thought audiences watched period drama precisely because they want something as authentic as possible and that could have happened in that period.  If she was faithful to R&Ds book characters, much of last night's episode could have happened, but did not in the context of those particular people in those particular books.   I know all adaptations vary from the original, but the essence of the characters need not. 

And why has Demelza become the parish midwife?  Verity would have had a surgeon from Falmouth for her confinement. 

I hope Mammoth do not get too carried away with their success with thoughts of grandeur and high ratings by dumbing down and thinking that all viewers want to see is conflict, shouting and action moving from one catastrophe to another.  Life isn't like that at all, and it certainly isn't like that in the books. They seemed so concerned in the first series to be faithful to the stories, let's have more of that, please.

Rant over

Mrs G

 



-- Edited by Mrs Gimlett on Monday 7th of November 2016 07:06:57 PM


 I agree with all you say Mrs G and would only add that I think that Debbie Horsfield's scripts in the second series have made it very difficult for the actors to stay in character. She has had no previous experience of writing scripts for a period drama and I think this shows. I was very disappointed with the final episode for reasons you have given. Such a missed opportunity! I was thinking back to the Andrew Davies version of Pride and Prejudice where the BBC had the luxury of 12 episodes (or was it more?) for one book. How much better this could have been with that many episodes and a different script writer.

Stella



-- Edited by Stella Poldark on Monday 7th of November 2016 10:49:06 PM

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Once again for the second time in 40 years, the BBC proved incapable of doing a decent adaptation of "Warleggan".  Is there something about this particular novel that make the BBC and television producers incapble of approaching this particular novel in an honest manner?  Apparently so.  I had hoped that Debbie Horsfield would rectify the mistakes of the 1975 series.  Instead, she created her own set of mistakes.  Oh well.  On to Series Three.



-- Edited by LJones41 on Monday 7th of November 2016 09:20:44 PM

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At the BFI panel discussion last year, Debbie Horsfield said she hoped that viewers of the TV series would discover WG's books.  That's what happened to me; I have read and reread all 12 books many times.  I have them in hard copy, on my computer and and my iPad.  Readers of the books fall in love with them.  And because of DH's promises and assurances to honor WG's vision (unlike the 1970s version), we naturally have certain expectations.  Of course, the translation cannot be exact, but we hope the essence of the characters and plots will remain true.  After all, that's what DH said.  I have been utterly disappointed.  As Mrs G. says below "In the book, they were both desperately unhappy, and unable to articulate it,  but in their daily lives you wouldn't have known that."  Well, just in case modern audiences wouldn't get it, they beat us over the head with it.   Perhaps DH believes that modern audiences can't do subtle.  So instead of the satisfying depiction of a gradual thaw (Ross's return from Trenwith, the shopping trip to Truro, etc.), we get totally made-up scenes - miners storming Trenwith, Ross flirting with joining the army, Demelza confronting Elizabeth.  Oh, and the not-too-subtle Ellizabeth's face disappearing in flames.  Please.  "Feisty" comes to mean bitter, belittling and shrewish.  Instead of a believable and lovely reconciliation, we have the let's-make-it-all-better-in-the-last-10-minutes-of-the-show trick.

I certainly have been naive, but I blame DH: she led me to have expectations that she did not fulfill.  I may watch series 3.  Who am I kidding; I will watch the next series.  But this time, I will not have expectations that DH will follow the books except maybe in a broad, outline kind of way.  I will go back to my beloved books.  My Ross and Demelza look like the TV series, but that's where the similarities end.



-- Edited by JanetMaison on Monday 7th of November 2016 05:17:37 PM



-- Edited by JanetMaison on Monday 7th of November 2016 05:21:51 PM

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Date: Nov 7 2:40 PM, 2016
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Ross and Mrs. Gimlett,

You have both so eloquently express my feelings regarding this latest adaptation. I have felt that the poignancy of the intimate conflict between Ross and Demelza was missing. That Ross saying, "It was one night. How long will it take you to forgive?" was so out of character. He might have been inept about expressing his feelings but he was not insensitive to hers. As for Demelza, she has been portrayed as angry, bitter, and scornful. I never got the feeling that she was torn. I don't know what there version of feisty is but it is not mine.

However, as far as wrapping up the story for the viewing public, I will say that they did a good job. Although I did note that Ross says the same thing at the end of this season as he did the last. "She will never come between us again." is pretty much "She will never take me." I think that I will have to watch this season again as a viewer and not as a reader. I will try to see as its own entity, without the expectations that it could or would live up to as you say it Ross "the cinema of my mind."



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Date: Nov 7 2:24 PM, 2016
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I do agree, Ross, that if viewers are urged into reading the books, WG would be absolutely delighted.  The trouble is, even reviewers from the daily newspapers admit to not reading the novels, at the same time as 'predicting' what will happen next.  If they are not drawn towards the originals, how many others are?

As you say, the essential love story is timeless.  But it is how that story is portrayed,  which is not how WG wrote it.  Ross and Demelza always were civil to each other, apart from the odd outburst.  Demelza always gave him best when it came to important things.  They were a couple ahead of their time in many ways, but they were not a 21st Century couple.  There were definite lines which even Ross did not overstep.

I think throughout this series, Ross has been shown to be far more reckless than he really was.  Instance his participation in the 'run' into Nampara Cove.  He was scrupulous in drawing the curtains tightly and keeping within doors so that he could deny knowledge if the run was surprised.  It has made him look foolish, as has the behaviour of them both after May 9th.  The whole of Cornwall must have heard about it within hours!  In the book, they were both desperately unhappy, and unable to articulate it,  but in their daily lives you wouldn't have known that.  Hard to get across on screen I agree, but as use has been made of flashback and dream sequences, not too difficult to overcome, perhaps.

If only the Gimletts had been introduced, more discretion would have been the order of the day.  And where was Garrick last night - come to think of it, where has he been all series?

Maybe, when the next series begins, I shall watch the first episode and decide from that about the rest.  At least Aunt Agatha has put her Tarot cards back in the box - for now!

As Demelza might have said, 'I'm not at all certain sure I will watch any more'.

Old Ma G



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Date: Nov 7 12:06 PM, 2016
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Very well put indeed Mrs. G and my thoughts exactly as I was unable to get into the whole series at all, the books still belonging to a completely different universe altogether as one's own imagination is the true cinema of the mind. Especially how WG so rightly felt about Demelza and all "his children".

One major point I take issue with however concerns modern day audiences and their appetites, as the true love written and described so eloquently and definitively by Winston Graham in the books between Ross and Demelza has never and will never know any time boundaries at all.

Nonetheless if the series continues to draw many new readers to the incomparable books then thankfully it will have been and continue to be a very worthwhile, laudable and commendable effort indeed.

Because it would undoubtedly have made Winston Graham very, very happy....



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Date: Nov 7 10:51 AM, 2016
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Well, it's all over for a few months.  I wonder what you all thought?

For me, it ended slightly better than I feared, considering all the column inches written about it.

However.

I do feel that by changing both Ross and Demelza's characters the team have betrayed WGs painstaking work.  He wrote those books, building up the characters with great care, making sure that, although they were by no means perfect, they never became caricatures of themselves, as he himself said, 'they grew organically'.  WG grew to love Demelza, partly, I imagine, because he based her loosely on his wife in the first place; and as he didn't like Angharad's Demelza (also too fiery and feisty), I don't think he would like the way on-screen Demelza is developing now.

You would think they might have learned from the 1970s adaptation and WGs reaction to it.

The ending last night could so have easily been reproduced as per book, had not Debbie Horsfield written Demelza as shrewish and unforgiving. It is one of THE scenes of the whole book as far as I am concerned (and quite dramatic enough!).  I just longed to see the look of concern on Demelza's face when Ross returned from Trenwith after his tussle with George and him realising she still felt something for him.  I believe they are portrayed as too black and white.  Perhaps the team think the audience cannot cope with nuance and subtlety, but surely it is those very ingredients which draw us to that couple.

We all knew Ross wouldn't sign that indenture to the army - why invent it at all when there is so much material in the books to choose from?  If as I have read today, Demelza is going to become even more 'feisty', they definitely are heading in the wrong direction in my view.  According to DH, she is looking at the story from the 21st century point of view.  I have always thought audiences watched period drama precisely because they want something as authentic as possible and that could have happened in that period.  If she was faithful to R&Ds book characters, much of last night's episode could have happened, but did not in the context of those particular people in those particular books.   I know all adaptations vary from the original, but the essence of the characters need not. 

And why has Demelza become the parish midwife?  Verity would have had a surgeon from Falmouth for her confinement. 

I hope Mammoth do not get too carried away with their success with thoughts of grandeur and high ratings by dumbing down and thinking that all viewers want to see is conflict, shouting and action moving from one catastrophe to another.  Life isn't like that at all, and it certainly isn't like that in the books. They seemed so concerned in the first series to be faithful to the stories, let's have more of that, please.

Rant over

Mrs G

 



-- Edited by Mrs Gimlett on Monday 7th of November 2016 07:06:57 PM

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