Members Login
Username 
 
Password 
    Remember Me  
Post Info TOPIC: Discrepancies throughout the Poldark books


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 104
Date: Feb 6 7:55 PM, 2017
RE: Discrepancies throughout the Poldark books
Permalink  
 


A normal person can walk 3 miles in an hour, less if you have a long stride like Ross, I imagine a horse at a normal trot can go twice that speed so I am guessing it would take two hours to go the 12 miles. Also, we know Trenwith is 3 miles from Nampara so when Ross and Demelza and others are going back and forth from there and to there it would be an hour walk. 



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 156
Date: Feb 6 5:18 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

More on the distance discrepancy between Nampara and Killewarren

At the end of TBM, when WG is wrapping up loose ends, he provides an update on Dwight's recovery at Killewarren. While the Nampara Poldarks are enjoying family time on their lawn, WG states:

"And a dozen miles away Caroline Penvenen was watching a groom help Dwight mount his first horse..."

This explains why, at the beginning of the book, it took R&D over 2 1/2 hours to reach to Killewarren.  It also explains why, on a subsequent visit to Nampara, Caroline told Demelza she could not stay longer because it would take her forever to get home and Uncle Ray would be worried.  And it particularly answers, for me, the question of why Ross didn't enforce his suggestion (at the end of Warleggan) that Caroline visit often.

'When Dwight has gone, so long as you stay with your uncle, I hope you'll come and sup with us once or twice a week. It will help the time to pass.'  This would have been a welcome escape for Caroline. 

But, apparently, WG found it convenient to have the families closer so that the twelve miles gradually shrunk until by the end of the saga, the distance between the two homes was a comfortable four mile walk. 

 ----------------------------------------

One of the inconsistencies that always strikes me is the shifting distance between Nampara and Killewarren. An early example occurs in The Black Moon (p. 124 my edition). When Ross and Demelza accept an invitation to dine with Ralph-Allen Daniell, they decide to break their journey by taking chocolate with Caroline at Killewarren.  

The text states, "they left home before eight on the 28th..." and "reached Killewarren about ten-thirty..."

This suggests a travel time of over two-and-a-half-hours by horseback. In each of the successive books, the distance seems to shrink drastically until it seems that the two houses are separated only by a walking distance of a few miles.  Then, in the Author's Note to Bella, we are informed,  "A mile beyond Sawle Church in an inland direction live the ENYSES, at Killewarren."

Finally, when Caroline invites Lord Edward to stay at Killewarren during Bella's illness, he asks Clowance, "how far is their house from here? She relies, "about four miles." 



__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 423
Date: Feb 5 11:04 AM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Mrs Gimlett wrote:

Candles were a very important part of life in those times, Dave.  Without them - only firelight!

I think if you light one candle on a dark night and see just how little light it gives, you'll understand why there are so many.  It wasn't romanticism per se, as is the case for much candle lighting these days, but pure practicality.

Perhaps Ross lit another candle because he liked to see what he was taking to his bed...  I think that would mean there were then three in the bedroom; one Ross carried upstairs with him, one Demelza brought with her and the extra one he decided was necessary. That was quite extravagant...


 Well if no one else is going offer this observation on the subject of candlelight, I will. (It is one of my favorite scenes from a Poldark marriage. Demelza is beginning the first morning of her first visit to London.)

Spoiler



-- Edited by Dark Mare on Sunday 5th of February 2017 11:04:44 AM



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 104
Date: Feb 4 1:49 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

I live in a rural area and sometimes during a ferocious storm we lose our power and have to resort to candles. 



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 104
Date: Feb 3 3:47 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Hi, I don't if Victoria is playing over there but it is here in the States and there was a scene in last week's episode about candles. The Queen's right-hand gal (or whatever she is called) is trying to save money and is using tallow instead of wax. It was amusing how it had disastrous consequences during  Q.Victoria's party ball. 



__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 338
Date: Feb 3 9:18 AM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Mrs Gimlett wrote:

Candles were a very important part of life in those times, Dave.  Without them - only firelight!

I think if you light one candle on a dark night and see just how little light it gives, you'll understand why there are so many.  It wasn't romanticism per se, as is the case for much candle lighting these days, but pure practicality.

Perhaps Ross lit another candle because he liked to see what he was taking to his bed...  I think that would mean there were then three in the bedroom; one Ross carried upstairs with him, one Demelza brought with her and the extra one he decided was necessary. That was quite extravagant...

Oh and Stella, you say how does WG remember small details - well, I would think that scene was etched into his brain.  It's the catalyst for everything.  I guess he wrote and rewrote that section so it would naturally be something he would never forget.


 The importance of candles is something I forget. I recall there was mention of how many more candles there were at Trenwith and think it might have been Demelza who noticed this. Of course George had even more!

Mrs G - you are of course right about that scene being the catalyst for everything and so naturally WG would have it etched into his brain. There are so many aspects and layers to the books and many things that are linked together throughout the books that, even if one spent a lifetime re-reading and noting the many intertwined aspects of the books, it would be impossible to know them all.

Stella



__________________


Honorary Life Member. Forum Moderator

Status: Offline
Posts: 783
Date: Feb 3 8:13 AM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Candles were a very important part of life in those times, Dave.  Without them - only firelight!

I think if you light one candle on a dark night and see just how little light it gives, you'll understand why there are so many.  It wasn't romanticism per se, as is the case for much candle lighting these days, but pure practicality.

Perhaps Ross lit another candle because he liked to see what he was taking to his bed...  I think that would mean there were then three in the bedroom; one Ross carried upstairs with him, one Demelza brought with her and the extra one he decided was necessary. That was quite extravagant...

Oh and Stella, you say how does WG remember small details - well, I would think that scene was etched into his brain.  It's the catalyst for everything.  I guess he wrote and rewrote that section so it would naturally be something he would never forget.



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 104
Date: Feb 3 5:52 AM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Yes Yes, I remember that when I first read that episode and thought it was puzzling. I would think he would put the candle out. Of course, candlelight is very poor and it is maybe more romantic than most electric ones or does Ross likes to see what is going on. Do you have an idea why he lit the candle? Also, candles are mention many times in these books. What did  W.G. indicate by so many lighting or extinguishing of candles   ......most times they are extinguished and the smoke continues to curl upwards.  Even in the film version they use this candle theme, is it a transition effect? In the film someone mentioned they used the surf, waves breaking on the shore to indicated a jump forward in time. 



__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 338
Date: Feb 2 8:40 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Mrs Gimlett wrote:

Yes, Stella.

Ross and Demelza are 'relaxing' in bed after his return from London and they are catching up on news, and idly talking of memories and trivia.  Then I think it is Demelza who says something like 'do you remember first taking me to bed in this room?'  Then he points out she seduced him at which she replies it didn't feel like it because he lit another candle.  He tells her he meant to know her better by morning...


 Thank you Mrs G. You always have the answers biggrin I thought that WG did not re-read his earlier books so I wonder how he remembered such a small detail but got other things wrong.



__________________


Honorary Life Member. Forum Moderator

Status: Offline
Posts: 783
Date: Feb 2 6:59 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Yes, Stella.

Ross and Demelza are 'relaxing' in bed after his return from London and they are catching up on news, and idly talking of memories and trivia.  Then I think it is Demelza who says something like 'do you remember first taking me to bed in this room?'  Then he points out she seduced him at which she replies it didn't feel like it because he lit another candle.  He tells her he meant to know her better by morning...



__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 338
Date: Feb 2 6:18 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

What follows is not a discrepancy but I'm hoping you will indulge me. In Ross Poldark, just before the seduction scene gets going Ross lights a second candle. We are not told why until The Stranger from the Sea. Can anyone remember where in The Stranger From the Sea we are given an explanation of the second candle?



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 104
Date: Feb 2 4:54 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Yeah, I agree I was just having a little fun with this one. I think his correct name "Malcolm" is mentioned later in the book. 



__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 423
Date: Jan 29 1:41 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

That's right. I'd forgotten that one.



__________________


Honorary Life Member. Forum Moderator

Status: Offline
Posts: 783
Date: Jan 29 9:57 AM, 2017
Permalink  
 

I think Hector was just a simple error.  WG acknowledged in his memoirs that he didn't read the previous books when he embarked on book 5.  Considering all he wrote in the intervening years, it's astonishing how much he did remember.  The odd mistake of a first name is forgivable. 

However, it should have been picked up before publication.

 

Another inconsistency through the books is The Gatehouse, where Dwight lived. 

Ross originally goes to old Horace Treneglos to ask him about it, as it is on his land.   Later it seems to creep over onto Poldark land and by the later books, Ross has assumed complete ownership of it.



__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 423
Date: Jan 29 9:12 AM, 2017
Permalink  
 

I doubt it. I think he just misremembered what first name he'd given McNeil. 

Maybe Hector McNeil was the name WG originally chose when he was writing "Warleggan," the first book in which he discloses McNeil's first name, and someone reading the manuscript reminded him there was a real Hector McNeil. And not only was Hector McNeil a real person, but when Soviet spy Guy Burgess had spirited hundreds of top secret documents out of the office of the state secretary at the Foreign Office to be photographed for the Kremlin, McNeil had been the hoodwinked state secretary and Burgess, his private secretary. (Burgess and Donald Maclean, members 1 and 2 of the Cambridge Five, defected to the Soviet Union in 1951, two years before "Warleggan" was published.) Somehow I doubt WG would have wanted to give that poor man's name to his lecherous soldier character.

However, by the time he was writing "The Four Swans" more than 20 years later, he might have forgotten about all that and remembered only the first name he had come up with. 

 

 



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 104
Date: Jan 29 4:28 AM, 2017
Permalink  
 

So was this some inside joke W.G. was playing?  



__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 423
Date: Jan 29 3:51 AM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Dave,

Let's just accept it as a mistake. The alternative is too dreadful to contemplate: There was actually a mother who christened her son Hector Malcolm McNeil and then called him Malcolm. Given the definition of hector is "talk to someone in a bullying way," she would have essentially been inviting people to bully her son. Too cruel.

I do wonder whether the Cambridge Five spy ring was back in the news when WG was writing that sentence because there was a prominent Scottish politician named Hector McNeil who had had the misfortune of having employed one of the Soviet spies, Guy Burgess, as his private secretary. (When Burgess worked for McNeil, then Minister of State at the Foreign Office, he was leaking top secret documents to the Soviets. He would spirit them out of McNeil's office, give them to Soviet agent to photograph and then return them to the office the next day. McNeil never caught on.)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hector_McNeil

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Burgess

 



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 104
Date: Jan 28 4:41 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 


'

Compared to the predatory conquerors she had kept at bay in the past, such as Hugh Bodrugan, Hector McNeil and John Treneglos, this was completely without risk, danger or any other hazard. But it didnt feel like it which was the trouble'.  p.85 Four Swans

Is this a mistake ? Hector?  

However I would like to think that  that incident at Werry House way back in time was so distressful and shameful to Demelza she  could never say his full name especially his first name  "Malcolm".   'As a special favour for tonight, would you consider calling me Malcolm?  p.335 Warleggan. 

 

Here is a post that I placed elsewhere. The last sentence is my interpretation to help cover the mistake. After all I don't think it would be too unreasonable for Demelza to have those thoughts. 



__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 423
Date: Jan 20 4:48 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Mrs Gimlett wrote:

In house editors did read proofs, but they were not expected to pick up discrepancies of the sort we are discussing.  When I was in publishing, some authors very annoyingly were prone to some re-writing at the galley proof stage.  Occasionally it improved things, most often it just annoyed the type-setters.

However things may have been different in other countries.  I am talking about 50 years ago!  Goodness knows what happens now - some books are so full of mistakes I wonder if anyone at production stage reads them at all.


That's funny. As I recall, that was the reason we stopped having reporters read page proofs before deadline. 

It is disturbing how much of the production process of each print medium has been streamlined into ineffectiveness. 

 



__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 338
Date: Jan 19 12:03 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Fijane wrote:

Stella, I wasn't sure of the final conclusion based on reading the comments. Mrs Gimlett said that she "seemed to remember" that he had other christian names - I took that as uncertain. Can anyone confirm that he definitely had those other names, and that would be the reason they were occasionally used?


 Fijane - I did look up one reference in The Black Moon and found that in consecutive paragraphs he was referred to as 'Osborne' and then 'William'. I have not looked for other names and am rather busy just now. I thought it was only these two that were used.

Stella



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 193
Date: Jan 18 10:08 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Stella, I wasn't sure of the final conclusion based on reading the comments. Mrs Gimlett said that she "seemed to remember" that he had other christian names - I took that as uncertain. Can anyone confirm that he definitely had those other names, and that would be the reason they were occasionally used?



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 156
Date: Jan 18 3:56 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Here are two more.

(1) Near the end of the Angry Tide,  when Ross is seeking yet another reconciliation with Demelza, they discuss their tempestuous relationship.

Demelza says: "Perhaps we both care too much."

Ross replies: "It's a signal failing in two people who have been married fourteen years. But I think if we can admit that, it is a long way towards understanding."

It is then near the end of 1799. Since they were married in 1787, the date is off a couple of years.  

 

(2) I seem to recall someone mentioning the changing number of Mrs. Zacky's children, but I can't find it in this thread. But in any event I think this is another example.

In Ross Poldark, when Ross has just returned home and is seeking "cheap" labor to help restore his farm, he visits the Martins. 

"There were two new faces since Ross left, making eleven in all, and Mrs. Martin was pregnant again."

Then in the Twisted Sword, Ross visits the Martins again when he is trying to recruit Martins to attend Katie and Music's wedding. He notices:

"Mrs. Zacky, who had delivered Demelza of Julia and helped at the births of Jeremy and Clowance, and who had eight children of her own, had not shriveled with the years: she was a stout, white-haired, bespectacled, flat-faced, rubicund, vigorous seventy-one."   

Of course it's possible that WG was referring to the number of children who had lived.

 

 

 



__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 338
Date: Jan 18 11:31 AM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Fijane wrote:
Stella Poldark wrote:
Fijane wrote:

Reading The Black Moon, I've just come across another small error. George is considering the pros and cons of allowing Morwenna to go back to Trenwith after her initial resistance to the marriage plans. He speculates that a bit of time and distance will do no harm (little does he know) and calls Osborne Whitworth , "William Osborne". Typo, maybe? or a little lapse in concentration?


 Fijane - can you give me the Book number and Chapter number please? I have a first edition Black Moon and would like to see if this error is in it. I remember seeing it in the Pan Macmillan edition.

Stella


Sorry about late reply, it's been a busy couple of days.

It is in Book Two, Chapter 5 - in my Pan Mac it is on page 209. The paragraph starts "The decision to let her return to Trenwith with Mr and Mrs Jonathan Chynoweth and Geoffrey Charles was taken late one evening..."

The later part: "...absence from William Osborne might make the heart grow fonder."

So, was it a mistake, or a deliberate use of two christian names?


 Fijane - if you scroll down you will see posts from others giving details of other occasions when Osborne was referred to as William. Thanks for information and I shall still check it with my first edition.

 



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 193
Date: Jan 17 10:11 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Stella Poldark wrote:
Fijane wrote:

Reading The Black Moon, I've just come across another small error. George is considering the pros and cons of allowing Morwenna to go back to Trenwith after her initial resistance to the marriage plans. He speculates that a bit of time and distance will do no harm (little does he know) and calls Osborne Whitworth , "William Osborne". Typo, maybe? or a little lapse in concentration?


 Fijane - can you give me the Book number and Chapter number please? I have a first edition Black Moon and would like to see if this error is in it. I remember seeing it in the Pan Macmillan edition.

Stella


Sorry about late reply, it's been a busy couple of days.

It is in Book Two, Chapter 5 - in my Pan Mac it is on page 209. The paragraph starts "The decision to let her return to Trenwith with Mr and Mrs Jonathan Chynoweth and Geoffrey Charles was taken late one evening..."

The later part: "...absence from William Osborne might make the heart grow fonder."

So, was it a mistake, or a deliberate use of two christian names?



__________________


Honorary Life Member. Forum Moderator

Status: Offline
Posts: 783
Date: Jan 17 6:59 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

In house editors did read proofs, but they were not expected to pick up discrepancies of the sort we are discussing.  When I was in publishing, some authors very annoyingly were prone to some re-writing at the galley proof stage.  Occasionally it improved things, most often it just annoyed the type-setters.

However things may have been different in other countries.  I am talking about 50 years ago!  Goodness knows what happens now - some books are so full of mistakes I wonder if anyone at production stage reads them at all.



__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 423
Date: Jan 17 3:55 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

You're right, Mrs. Gimlett, it was at the ball. I now remember it. Thanks!

I was under the impression that there was even more redundancy in book editing than there was in newspaper and magazine editing before the recession and technology made thousands of editing jobs just disappear. I thought the author and the editors all had to read the galleys and the proofreader had to read them against the manuscript. A lot of writers hate to read their own work once it is in type -- the way actors hate to see themselves on screen -- so I'm surprised that book publishers would leave the proof checking to authors. (Newspapers certainly never did that to reporters when I was in the business.) 



-- Edited by Dark Mare on Tuesday 17th of January 2017 03:57:53 PM

__________________


Honorary Life Member. Forum Moderator

Status: Offline
Posts: 783
Date: Jan 16 4:16 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

I think you will find that William Osborne occurs a few times - in Demelza for a start - at the ball Demelza and Ross attend.  Lady Whitworth is talking to Hon. Maria Agar and mentions William.

I seem to remember that William was one of his names, but he was mostly called Osborne, possibly his father had been a William and so they used his other name.

In the days when the early novels were printed galley proofs would have been sent to the author for any corrections; typographical errors were picked up by editorial staff in house.



__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 423
Date: Jan 16 11:31 AM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Hollyhock wrote:

Well, I am not going to beat this horse to death, but I stand by original observation. It should not have taken Ross and Demelza over two and a half hours to travel four miles from Nampara to Killewarren. Even if Judith was a young, untrained pony, Ross was enough of an accomplished horseman to control any possible unruliness. (I mean, not even the wildest horse would dare defy Ross Poldark for so long a time!) Comparatively, as was suggested earlier in this thread, it took them practically as long to reach Killewarren as it did their final destination, Trelissick, which was several miles on the other side of Turro. Logically and geographically speaking, this should not have been the case. Later in the books, WG has people comfortably walking between Nampara and Killewarren regularly. So, this is is clearly a discrepancy, whether the great man forgot what he wrote or later changed his mind. 



-- Edited by Hollyhock on Friday 13th of January 2017 10:35:59 PM


I think you are probably right that it was yet another error that the editors and proofreaders failed to catch and kick back to Winston Graham to fix. However, I still say it is not inconceivable that they would spend 2.5 hours on a four-mile ride if one of the mounts was a green horse for the reasons I previously listed.

I just reread the passage, and it occurred to me that they may have been expected at Killewarren at a set time, 10:30 a.m., and left before 8 a.m. just because it was a nice day and they felt like it. Maybe they spent 2.5 hours getting from point A to point B because they had nothing to keep them at home past 8 a.m., but they didn't want to arrive at Killewarren too early. Nothing says they were riding the whole time. They could have stopped to talk for a while or to let the horses graze or drink from a creek. 



__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 338
Date: Jan 16 10:36 AM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Fijane wrote:

Reading The Black Moon, I've just come across another small error. George is considering the pros and cons of allowing Morwenna to go back to Trenwith after her initial resistance to the marriage plans. He speculates that a bit of time and distance will do no harm (little does he know) and calls Osborne Whitworth , "William Osborne". Typo, maybe? or a little lapse in concentration?


 Fijane - can you give me the Book number and Chapter number please? I have a first edition Black Moon and would like to see if this error is in it. I remember seeing it in the Pan Macmillan edition.

Stella



__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 423
Date: Jan 16 6:16 AM, 2017
Permalink  
 

You found it! I was trying to remember where I saw it. 

 



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 193
Date: Jan 15 8:58 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Reading The Black Moon, I've just come across another small error. George is considering the pros and cons of allowing Morwenna to go back to Trenwith after her initial resistance to the marriage plans. He speculates that a bit of time and distance will do no harm (little does he know) and calls Osborne Whitworth , "William Osborne". Typo, maybe? or a little lapse in concentration?



__________________


Honorary Life Member. Forum Moderator

Status: Offline
Posts: 783
Date: Jan 13 7:37 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Agreed, Hollyhock.  Or it could even have been a misprint.  When you consider that most people can walk about 3 miles per hour, horses, even lame ones, would have had to use a very scenic route to take as long as 2.5 hours.



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 156
Date: Jan 12 3:40 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Well, I am not going to beat this horse to death, but I stand by original observation. It should not have taken Ross and Demelza over two and a half hours to travel four miles from Nampara to Killewarren. Even if Judith was a young, untrained pony, Ross was enough of an accomplished horseman to control any possible unruliness. (I mean, not even the wildest horse would dare defy Ross Poldark for so long a time!) Comparatively, as was suggested earlier in this thread, it took them practically as long to reach Killewarren as it did their final destination, Trelissick, which was several miles on the other side of Turro. Logically and geographically speaking, this should not have been the case. Later in the books, WG has people comfortably walking between Nampara and Killewarren regularly. So, this is is clearly a discrepancy, whether the great man forgot what he wrote or later changed his mind. 



-- Edited by Hollyhock on Friday 13th of January 2017 10:35:59 PM

__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 423
Date: Jan 12 10:00 AM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Fijane wrote:

I've nothing to add, but can I just say thanks for a very entertaining discussion? I'm enjoying your insights, especially as I know almost nothing about horses or travelling on them.



-- Edited by Fijane on Thursday 12th of January 2017 05:04:25 AM


 Oh, you're welcome. Glad I didn't bore you.

 



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 193
Date: Jan 12 5:03 AM, 2017
Permalink  
 

I've nothing to add, but can I just say thanks for a very entertaining discussion? I'm enjoying your insights, especially as I know almost nothing about horses or travelling on them.



-- Edited by Fijane on Thursday 12th of January 2017 05:04:25 AM

__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 423
Date: Jan 6 1:20 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Hollyhock,

Four miles is and isn't no distance on horseback, depending on the time of day. Horses see better than people do after dark, but they aren't cats. Also, once the sun goes down, all matter of critters who avoid paths and roads during the day for fear of encounters with cart wheels, horses' hooves and people, begin to venture out. (I have meant to do a tally of how many times WG wrote words to the effect that [fill in the horse's name] spooked at a badger emerging from the underbrush.) Maybe I'm overly cautious, but I would not gallop a field hunter in the dark unless the moon was full; the road was wide, straight, flat and well-maintained; and there was a highwayman behind me on a horse who seemed slower than mine. (Hunters are unflappable at speed, but they can't see a hoof-size animal burrow in the dark until they are upon it.)

If she left in daylight, I imagine Caroline would canter as much of the route as she could before twilight and then slow to a collected trot or even a walk. If she ran into a footpad, she would spur her horse to a canter or even a gallop to put a good distance between her and the would-be thief and then return to a walk. So if it is four miles, the trip would take somewhere between 15 minutes and an hour.

Caroline was inclined to exaggerate for effect in her younger days, and she had what I imagine was a rather cranky patient awaiting her at home. Plus, in a conversation she had with one of the Poldark children many years later -- I think it was Jeremy at the Killewarrem party for her Aunt Sarah -- she revealed that she and Demelza were uncomfortable around each other in the early days of their acquaintance. She could have been begging off because she was still uneasy around Demelza without Ross present. A nice little social lie to get away because she didn't know Demelza well enough yet to be sure she was sincere and not just being polite -- and maybe Caroline wasn't sure she wanted to know Demelza better just yet. (She had thought so much of Ross and so little of Demelza before she really knew them.) 

 



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 156
Date: Jan 5 3:39 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Dark Mare wrote:

I can think of one reason the trip from Nampara to Killewarren that day could have taken 2.5 hours: Judith.

 

Dark Mare,

Thank you for the interesting details about young horses. However, there are other 'distance' inconsistencies that can't be attributed to Judith being a 'green-broke' pony. For example, Caroline makes an impromptu visit to Nampara while Ross is in France seeking information on Dwight's status. Demelza asks Caroline to visit longer but Caroline tells her that, "Uncle Ray will already be in a relapse after missing me for so long. It will take me until I don't know what time to get home, and I must fly at once." Remember, Caroline was riding one of her favorite hunters and four miles would have been no distance at all.   

I've decided to view the distance between the two houses as fluid in the Black Moon and throughout the saga. This minor detail (although sometimes disorienting) doesn't detract from the story and even helps to highlight travel during during that time period.  I have certainly found the descriptions of the 5-day stage coach ride between Cornwall and London an educational eye opener!  

 



__________________


Honorary Life Member. Forum Moderator

Status: Offline
Posts: 783
Date: Jan 5 9:09 AM, 2017
Permalink  
 

I am sure the length of time taken was a mistake by WG.  Otherwise they would not have reached Trelissick (their destination) until late afternoon!  Also, there were very used to walking, and Demelza at least,  many times walked to Dwight and Caroline's house.  I think Ross used his horse more because of his ankle injury.

 



__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 423
Date: Jan 5 5:05 AM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Hollyhock wrote:

One of the inconsistencies that always strikes me is the shifting distance between Nampara and Killewarren. An early example occurs in The Black Moon (p. 124 my edition). When Ross and Demelza accept an invitation to dine with Ralph-Allen Daniell, they decide to break their journey by taking chocolate with Caroline at Killewarren.  

The text states, "they left home before eight on the 28th..." and "reached Killewarren about ten-thirty..."

This suggests a travel time of over two-and-a-half-hours by horseback. In each of the successive books, the distance seems to shrink drastically until it seems that the two houses are separated only by a walking distance of a few miles.  Then, in the Author's Note to Bella, we are informed,  "A mile beyond Sawle Church in an inland direction live the ENYSES, at Killewarren."

Finally, when Caroline invites Lord Edward to stay at Killewarren during Bella's illness, he asks Clowance, "how far is their house from here? She relies, "about four miles." 

Even given the vagaries of Poldarkian geography, it is amazing how the distance shrunk over the years. 


Hollyhock

I can think of one reason the trip from Nampara to Killewarren that day could have taken 2.5 hours: Judith.

As I remember that part of the book, Ross was riding their new green-broke pony on that trip -- remember, Demelza wanted him to switch mounts with her because she thought he looked ridiculous on so a small pony? He refused because she was expecting Clowance at the time, and it was the young and green Judith's first trip of any distance, if I remember correctly.

I owned an excellent trail horse, and he and I were the escorts of choice of people taking young, green-broke horses on that first trip away from the barn. Some of those people were trainers working with client horses so I essentially got free lessons in how to handle a young horse on its first trip out of its comfort zone in exchange for my time. The most important thing I learned is that first trip must be a positive experience so leave it for a day when you have all the time in the world. It is essential to give the animal the chance to stop and stare for as long as it wants at anything and everything unfamiliar along the route -- that tends to prevent the 180-degree turn and bolt maneuver green horses are so good at. (This was perhaps Ross' reason for saying no to switching mounts. On a nimble large pony, the 180-degree turn and bolt maneuver can swing an adult riding astride right out of the saddle -- it happened to me [I suddenly found myself facing the opposite direction and standing in the left stirrup. As I quickly threw my right leg back over the saddle, I asked, "Shouldn't I be on the ground?"]. I would think someone riding sidesaddle might not be as lucky.)

Anyway, a horse walks at four miles per hour so it should take an hour to walk from Nampara to Killewarren on a trained horse. With a green horse, I would expect the trip to take an hour longer, but I might allow for it to take two hours longer. Also, Judith is a small pony so she has a shorter stride, and that would contribute to a longer riding time as well. 

This is the long way of saying that the 2.5-hour trip was probably an anomaly. I don't know whether WG spent a lot of time around horses or horse people (In his memoirs, I don't find much evidence of it, but little things in the "Poldark" books and especially in "Marnie" give me the impression that maybe he did.), but if he did, he likely would have known that Judith's first long outing would not have been rushed. But then again, why wouldn't he have explained that? When he was writing "The Black Moon," were horses still such a part of ordinary life even in major British cities that the explanation would have seemed  unnecessary?



-- Edited by Dark Mare on Thursday 5th of January 2017 05:06:50 AM

__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 423
Date: Jan 5 4:59 AM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Hollyhock wrote:

One of the inconsistencies that always strikes me is the shifting distance between Nampara and Killewarren. An early example occurs in The Black Moon (p. 124 my edition). When Ross and Demelza accept an invitation to dine with Ralph-Allen Daniell, they decide to break their journey by taking chocolate with Caroline at Killewarren.  

The text states, "they left home before eight on the 28th..." and "reached Killewarren about ten-thirty..."

This suggests a travel time of over two-and-a-half-hours by horseback. In each of the successive books, the distance seems to shrink drastically until it seems that the two houses are separated only by a walking distance of a few miles.  Then, in the Author's Note to Bella, we are informed,  "A mile beyond Sawle Church in an inland direction live the ENYSES, at Killewarren."

Finally, when Caroline invites Lord Edward to stay at Killewarren during Bella's illness, he asks Clowance, "how far is their house from here? She relies, "about four miles." 

Even given the vagaries of Poldarkian geography, it is amazing how the distance shrunk over the years. 


Hollyhock

I can think of one reason the trip from Nampara to Killewarren that day could have taken 2.5 hours: Judith.

As I remember that part of the book, Ross was riding their new green-broke pony on that trip -- remember, Demelza wanted him to switch mounts with her because she thought he looked ridiculous on so a small pony? He refused because she was expecting Clowance at the time, and it was the young and green Judith's first trip of any distance, if I remember correctly.

I owned an excellent trail horse, and he and I were the escorts of choice of people taking young, green-broke horses on that first trip away from the barn. Some of those people were trainers working with client horses so I essentially got free lessons in how to handle a young horse on its first trip out of its comfort zone in exchange for my time. The most important thing I learned is that first trip must be a positive experience so leave it for a day when you have all the time in the world. It is essential to give the animal the chance to stop and stare for as long as it wants at anything and everything unfamiliar along the route -- that tends to prevent the 180-degree turn and bolt maneuver green horses are so good at. (This was perhaps Ross' reason for saying no to switching mounts. On a nimble large pony, the 180-degree turn and bolt maneuver can swing an adult riding astride right out of the saddle -- it happened to me [I suddenly found myself facing the opposite direction and standing in the left stirrup. As I quickly threw my right leg back over the saddle, I asked, "Shouldn't I be on the ground?"]. I would think someone riding sidesaddle might not be as lucky.)

Anyway, a horse walks at four miles per hour so it should take an hour to walk from Nampara to Killewarren on a trained horse. With a green horse, I would expect the trip to take an hour longer, but I might allow for it to take two hours longer. Also, Judith is a small pony so she has a shorter stride, and that would contribute to a longer riding time as well. 

This is the long way of saying that the 2.5-hour trip was probably an anomaly. I don't know whether WG spent a lot of time around horses or horse people (In his memoirs, I don't find much evidence of it, but little things in the "Poldark" books and especially in "Marnie" give me the impression that maybe he did.), but if he did, he likely would have known that Judith's first long outing would not have been rushed. But then again, why wouldn't he have explained it? When he was writing "The Black Moon," were horses still such a part of ordinary life even in major British cities that the explanation would have seemed  unnecessary?



__________________


Honorary Life Member. Forum Moderator

Status: Offline
Posts: 783
Date: Jan 4 6:02 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Ah - I see.  I am sure you are right.  For someone who kept such meticulous research notes, it is surprising WG slipped up in other areas. 

However, no-one's perfect,  not even the great man.

As for the missing couple of hours between Nampara and Killewarren on that summer morning - we don't know what they got up to on the way...!



__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 423
Date: Jan 4 4:23 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Mrs Gimlett wrote:

Isn't a bayonet just a type of sword on the end of a gun?  If you google 'bayonet' there is an image of an 18th Century bayonet - it looks just like a short sword.



-- Edited by Mrs Gimlett on Tuesday 3rd of January 2017 05:47:36 PM


Except the sword thrust occurred in Pennsylvania and the bayonet cut occurred in New York, where Ross was sent after he was injured in Virginia. I can't imagine that Ross ever set foot in Pennsylvania, given that the most logical route for moving troops between eastern Virginia, where the James River fighting occurred, and New York was by sea. (Indeed, that seems to be the way most British troops were moved during the Revolutionary War.) The Atlantic Ocean doesn't actually touch Pennsylvania; Philadelphia is a port only because the Delaware River connects it to the Atlantic. 

WG supposedly didn't reread the previous books whenever he started a new one. I suspect he just forgot what he had previously written. 



__________________


Administration

Status: Offline
Posts: 1643
Date: Jan 3 6:39 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Examples of a bayonet....smile

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=bayonets+american+revolution&client=firefox-b-ab&biw=1093&bih=475&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjsu-TTz6bRAhWJrRoKHVPsDxcQ_AUIBigB



__________________

"Perfection is a full stop .... Ever the climbing but never the attaining Of the mountain top." W.G.

 

 



Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 156
Date: Jan 3 6:19 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

One of the inconsistencies that always strikes me is the shifting distance between Nampara and Killewarren. An early example occurs in The Black Moon (p. 124 my edition). When Ross and Demelza accept an invitation to dine with Ralph-Allen Daniell, they decide to break their journey by taking chocolate with Caroline at Killewarren.  

The text states, "they left home before eight on the 28th..." and "reached Killewarren about ten-thirty..."

This suggests a travel time of over two-and-a-half-hours by horseback. In each of the successive books, the distance seems to shrink drastically until it seems that the two houses are separated only by a walking distance of a few miles.  Then, in the Author's Note to Bella, we are informed,  "A mile beyond Sawle Church in an inland direction live the ENYSES, at Killewarren."

Finally, when Caroline invites Lord Edward to stay at Killewarren during Bella's illness, he asks Clowance, "how far is their house from here? She relies, "about four miles." 

Even given the vagaries of Poldarkian geography, it is amazing how the distance shrunk over the years.  

 



__________________


Honorary Life Member. Forum Moderator

Status: Offline
Posts: 783
Date: Jan 3 5:44 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

Isn't a bayonet just a type of sword on the end of a gun?  If you google 'bayonet' there is an image of an 18th Century bayonet - it looks just like a short sword.



-- Edited by Mrs Gimlett on Tuesday 3rd of January 2017 05:47:36 PM

__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 423
Date: Jan 1 8:48 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

How and where did Ross acquire his distinctive scar?
 
Was it a bayonet cut received in New York? (Page 51, "Ross Poldark"):
 
Ross forced himself to talk of his experiences in America  ... of those hectic first three months under Lord Cornwallis, when almost all the fighting he had seen had taken place; ... the sudden attack by the French while they were crossing the James River (Virginia); ... of a musket ball in the ankle and his being drafted to New York as a result; ... of a bayonet cut in the face during a local skirmish while the articles of the preliminary peace were being signed."
 
Or from a chance sword thrust in Pennsylvania? (Page 318, "Warleggan"):

"I dont know ..." His scar was very noticeable this morning. Often it was as if that chance sword-thrust in Pennsylvania remained with him and had become a symbol of the nonconformity of his nature, the unabiding renegade.
 
 
 


__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 423
Date: Jan 1 8:20 PM, 2017
Permalink  
 

In "Warleggan," Sir Hugh's birthday party was May 18, 1793, nine days after the night of infamy. One might expect Demelza to still remember that seven months later, when she was confessing her encounter with Capt. McNeil, but she didn't -- or the author and his editors didn't.

 

"... I must tell you, before we go any further, that on my last visit to the Bodrugans I had an adventure though it did not end in quite the same way as yours. I went you will know the sort of mood I went in to that ball. It was but four days after you had gone to Elizabeth. I should dearly have liked to revenge myself on you in the only way I could. And as it came about, the opportunity was there. Malcolm McNeil was there."

 

 



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 193
Date: Jan 1 3:46 AM, 2017
Permalink  
 

I always imagined him much older. Creepy.



__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 423
Date: Dec 31 10:29 PM, 2016
Permalink  
 

I think I read somewhere that it was "the big 5-0."



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 193
Date: Dec 31 10:16 PM, 2016
Permalink  
 

Just for interest, I've just read the ball where Demelza intends to revenge herself with MacNeil. The ball/party is to celebrate Sir Hugh's birthday - he states something like he wouldn't normally bother but this one probably needed marking. I would presume it was what we call a "noughtie" birthday.



__________________
«First  <  1 2 3  >  Last»  | Page of 3  sorted by
 
Quick Reply

Please log in to post quick replies.