Members Login
Username 
 
Password 
    Remember Me  
Post Info TOPIC: Series 2, Episode 9


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 135
Date: Dec 4 1:19 AM, 2016
RE: Series 2, Episode 9
Permalink  
 


I believe only Winston Graham knows what would have happened.



__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 384
Date: Nov 29 5:05 AM, 2016
Permalink  
 

LJones41 wrote:

 

Who is to say that Ross would not have assaulted Elizabeth if he had learned about the engagement the following day?

He still would have ridden over immediately, but Elizabeth would not have been alone. She would have received him downstairs, not in the hall outside her bedroom, and it would be daytime so she wouldn't have to get a candle, giving him the opportunity to push his way into her room and refuse to leave. 

Ross isn't about to attack Elizabeth when there are servants to come to her aid -- plus a great-aunt who is fond of his wife prowling the house.



__________________


Initiate

Status: Offline
Posts: 86
Date: Nov 29 3:27 AM, 2016
Permalink  
 

Stella Poldark wrote:
Mrs Gimlett wrote:

I am inclined to agree with you MrsMartin.

If Ross had brutally raped Elizabeth, and he had behaved in a fairly brutal way trying verbally to dissuade her from marrying George, she surely wouldn't have wanted him to visit her again.  In her shoes I would have been horrified that someone who had once been loving and desirous should have committed such an atrocity and I would never want to clap eyes on him again. 

Her protests became half-hearted (in the book) and I have always thought she realised (when Ross picked her up) she only got what she had, over a period of years, asked for. Just as she knew exactly what the effect of her letter would be.

If it was rape, it would be the perfect answer to marry George straight away, so that she would be safe from Ross - he would never have risked another such visit with George present - but she didn't. Was the postponement because she wanted to see Ross again and really thought he might leave Demelza for her?  Or was it because her brain was in turmoil and she didn't know what to do, because in her heart of hearts she knew Ross wouldn't abandon Demelza?  Of course she couldn't know what Demelza would do - maybe that was the reason for her indecision.

Perhaps during that night they both realised that much as they had previously yearned for each other, it was all hollow.

I wonder if she regretted ever having written to Ross in the first place.



-- Edited by Mrs Gimlett on Wednesday 23rd of November 2016 02:11:51 PM


 I agree with all you write, Mrs Gimlett and all that Mrs Martin has written, pointing us to ALL the books and not just this one chapter of book 4. As you say Mrs G, Elizabeth's behaviour after May 9th in no way suggests she experienced that night as being raped. I wish we could put this to bed now. It seems to me that everyone I know who has read all the books at least once and others who have read them multiple times conclude that this was consensual sex. Perhaps we need a separate forum for those who subscribe to the rape theory although I think they may find it difficult to produce much evidence in support.

Stella


Mrs. Gimlet, Mrs. Martin & Stella - I'm so grateful that you write on this page!  I love reading your comments.  Until I discovered this website, there was no one who read and loved the books as I did.  And Stella, I think it's a great idea to put the rape/not rape question as a separate topic. 



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 135
Date: Nov 28 9:15 PM, 2016
Permalink  
 

I'm willing to bet that both camps and all who fall in the middle agree that Elizabeth regretted writing the letter, but she was obligated to inform Ross because of his role as co-executor of Francis' estate. 

 

The other person who had to have had second thoughts was Demelza. She could have prevented May 9th simply by putting the letter into her pocket when it arrived and "finding" it there the next morning. "Oh Ross, please tell Elizabeth how sorry I am I delayed delivery of this letter by a day."

 

 

 

Who is to say that Ross would not have assaulted Elizabeth if he had learned about the engagement the following day?



-- Edited by LJones41 on Monday 28th of November 2016 09:16:12 PM



-- Edited by LJones41 on Monday 28th of November 2016 09:16:52 PM

__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 384
Date: Nov 25 12:56 PM, 2016
Permalink  
 

Mrs Gimlett wrote:

I am inclined to agree with you MrsMartin.

If Ross had brutally raped Elizabeth, and he had behaved in a fairly brutal way trying verbally to dissuade her from marrying George, she surely wouldn't have wanted him to visit her again.  In her shoes I would have been horrified that someone who had once been loving and desirous should have committed such an atrocity and I would never want to clap eyes on him again. 

Her protests became half-hearted (in the book) and I have always thought she realised (when Ross picked her up) she only got what she had, over a period of years, asked for. Just as she knew exactly what the effect of her letter would be.

If it was rape, it would be the perfect answer to marry George straight away, so that she would be safe from Ross - he would never have risked another such visit with George present - but she didn't. Was the postponement because she wanted to see Ross again and really thought he might leave Demelza for her?  Or was it because her brain was in turmoil and she didn't know what to do, because in her heart of hearts she knew Ross wouldn't abandon Demelza?  Of course she couldn't know what Demelza would do - maybe that was the reason for her indecision.

Perhaps during that night they both realised that much as they had previously yearned for each other, it was all hollow.

I wonder if she regretted ever having written to Ross in the first place.



-- Edited by Mrs Gimlett on Wednesday 23rd of November 2016 02:11:51 PM


I'm willing to bet that both camps and all who fall in the middle agree that Elizabeth regretted writing the letter, but she was obligated to inform Ross because of his role as co-executor of Francis' estate. 

The other person who had to have had second thoughts was Demelza. She could have prevented May 9th simply by putting the letter into her pocket when it arrived and "finding" it there the next morning. "Oh Ross, please tell Elizabeth how sorry I am I delayed delivery of this letter by a day."



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 185
Date: Nov 24 2:31 AM, 2016
Permalink  
 

Thank you, Stella. Well said.



__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 270
Date: Nov 23 8:10 PM, 2016
Permalink  
 

Mrs Gimlett wrote:

I am inclined to agree with you MrsMartin.

If Ross had brutally raped Elizabeth, and he had behaved in a fairly brutal way trying verbally to dissuade her from marrying George, she surely wouldn't have wanted him to visit her again.  In her shoes I would have been horrified that someone who had once been loving and desirous should have committed such an atrocity and I would never want to clap eyes on him again. 

Her protests became half-hearted (in the book) and I have always thought she realised (when Ross picked her up) she only got what she had, over a period of years, asked for. Just as she knew exactly what the effect of her letter would be.

If it was rape, it would be the perfect answer to marry George straight away, so that she would be safe from Ross - he would never have risked another such visit with George present - but she didn't. Was the postponement because she wanted to see Ross again and really thought he might leave Demelza for her?  Or was it because her brain was in turmoil and she didn't know what to do, because in her heart of hearts she knew Ross wouldn't abandon Demelza?  Of course she couldn't know what Demelza would do - maybe that was the reason for her indecision.

Perhaps during that night they both realised that much as they had previously yearned for each other, it was all hollow.

I wonder if she regretted ever having written to Ross in the first place.



-- Edited by Mrs Gimlett on Wednesday 23rd of November 2016 02:11:51 PM


 I agree with all you write, Mrs Gimlett and all that Mrs Martin has written, pointing us to ALL the books and not just this one chapter of book 4. As you say Mrs G, Elizabeth's behaviour after May 9th in no way suggests she experienced that night as being raped. I wish we could put this to bed now. It seems to me that everyone I know who has read all the books at least once and others who have read them multiple times conclude that this was consensual sex. Perhaps we need a separate forum for those who subscribe to the rape theory although I think they may find it difficult to produce much evidence in support.

Stella



__________________


Honorary Life Member. Forum Moderator

Status: Offline
Posts: 719
Date: Nov 23 2:09 PM, 2016
Permalink  
 

I am inclined to agree with you MrsMartin.

If Ross had brutally raped Elizabeth, and he had behaved in a fairly brutal way trying verbally to dissuade her from marrying George, she surely wouldn't have wanted him to visit her again.  In her shoes I would have been horrified that someone who had once been loving and desirous should have committed such an atrocity and I would never want to clap eyes on him again. 

Her protests became half-hearted (in the book) and I have always thought she realised (when Ross picked her up) she only got what she had, over a period of years, asked for. Just as she knew exactly what the effect of her letter would be.

If it was rape, it would be the perfect answer to marry George straight away, so that she would be safe from Ross - he would never have risked another such visit with George present - but she didn't. Was the postponement because she wanted to see Ross again and really thought he might leave Demelza for her?  Or was it because her brain was in turmoil and she didn't know what to do, because in her heart of hearts she knew Ross wouldn't abandon Demelza?  Of course she couldn't know what Demelza would do - maybe that was the reason for her indecision.

Perhaps during that night they both realised that much as they had previously yearned for each other, it was all hollow.

I wonder if she regretted ever having written to Ross in the first place.



-- Edited by Mrs Gimlett on Wednesday 23rd of November 2016 02:11:51 PM

__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 176
Date: Nov 23 1:39 PM, 2016
Permalink  
 

LJones41 wrote:

I'm aware of the entire story.  And I still stand by my words.  Worse, it does not make sense for Graham or any writer to end such a scene with one character forcing another on a bed in preparation for a rape . . . and in following novels "hint" that what happened between them was consensual sex.  That is just poor writing to me.  If Graham had truly intended for what happened between Ross and Elizabeth to be consensual, then he should have ended that scene with her consenting to have sex with him . . . even if it meant ending the scene with an embrace.  

 You can claim that Graham simply wanted to end the scene on a cliff hanger, but that makes no sense whatsoever and it's either a damn waste of time, or as I had stated earlier, bad writing.


 I never claimed that Winston Graham simply wanted to end this scene as a cliff hanger. I said that he respected his readers enough to allow them the discern from the subsequent scenes, that it was not a rape. Personally, I don't think Winston Graham even considered that what he wrote would ever have been considered a rape. Ross doesn't "force" Elizabeth on a bed in preparation for a rape. Ross lifts Elizabeth in his arms and carries her to a bed, that is where it ends. What you want are explicit words to explain to you what really happened and I don't think that they are necessary. I am able to conclude from Elizabeth's postponement of her marriage to George, that what happened between Ross and Elizabeth, was not a rape. And by Ross reaction to Elizabeth's hostility when they first meet after May 9th, that this was not a rape. The scene between Ross and Elizabeth, is one that is full of emotions, lust, anger, frustration but it is not a scene of violation or brutality. Neither of the characters remember it this way. Ross may have forces the issue, of their pent up passion for each other, with Elizabeth but that is not the same thing as forcing her to have sex with him. 

 

 



-- Edited by MrsMartin on Wednesday 23rd of November 2016 01:59:29 PM

__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 384
Date: Nov 23 6:51 AM, 2016
Permalink  
 

LJones41 wrote:

In Debbie Horsfield's defense, she had to write a scene that Winston Graham chose not to write, and she had to write it for a television audience. I don't know whether the BBC has rules regarding what the American television industry refers to as "mature content," but the U.S. over-the-air TV networks do, and she had to write what is arguably the most important scene in Series 2 in a way that could allow it to be edited for the American rebroadcast without losing the idea that this was a consensual sex act, not a rape.

  

Wait.  Are you saying that Debbie Horsfield had to change the scene from rape to consensual sex for the sake of American television audiences?

 

 

The scene WG provided her with easily could have been interpreted as the prelude to a rape so Horsfield had to put a thumb on the scale to make Elizabeth more culpable and therefore a willing participant.

 

Hasn't anyone ever wondered why Graham didn't simply end the scene with consensual sex, instead of with Ross about to force himself on Elizabeth?

 



-- Edited by LJones41 on Monday 21st of November 2016 09:55:03 PM


WaitAre you saying that Debbie Horsfield had to change the scene from rape to consensual sex for the sake of the American television audience?  

No, of course not. Debbie Horsfield had chosen to portray it as consensual sex because she had Andrew Graham's account of his conversation with his father, the author, about whether he had meant the incident to be a rape or consensual sex. WG told his son it was supposed to be consensual sex and the subsequent books make that clear. What I meant was the scene had to be made clearly consensual because what preceded it clearly had been force. I expected the scene was going to be edited by PBS and it was, but the part showing Elizabeth's willingness survived.

(Fellow American viewers: It looks like PBS is editing the BBC versions to cut several minutes of running time. I bought the UK versions on iTunes, and what PBS is showing for Episode 9, for instance, is missing an entire scene [the one in which Demelza lets Ross know he has been evicted from their bedroom by telling him there is a letter from Elizabeth in the library on his pillow]. I remember hearing some PBS stations now carry commercials so I guess the editing is done to accommodate them.  KOCE in Southern California fills the time with previews now, but I'm sure that time will be filled by pledge breaks if KOCE decides to rerun "Poldark" when pledge season rolls around.)

Hasn't anyone ever wondered why Graham didn't simply end the scene with consensual sex, instead of with Ross about to force himself on Elizabeth?  

I have wondered that. It isn't as if Winston Graham never wrote a rape scene or one in which the woman considered what happened to be rape. In "Marnie," the consummation of Marnie and Mark Rutland's marriage was a rape as far as Marnie was concerned. She is the book's narrator so her feelings and opinions are made abundantly clear. (Yes, Marnie does have emotional issues and she is an accomplished con artist and thief so she isn't always reliable, but she does know her own feelings.) 



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 135
Date: Nov 23 6:28 AM, 2016
Permalink  
 

The thing is that you can't just read that one chapter, it is part of the entire story.

 

I'm aware of the entire story.  And I still stand by my words.  Worse, it does not make sense for Graham or any writer to end such a scene with one character forcing another on a bed in preparation for a rape . . . and in following novels "hint" that what happened between them was consensual sex.  That is just poor writing to me.  If Graham had truly intended for what happened between Ross and Elizabeth to be consensual, then he should have ended that scene with her consenting to have sex with him . . . even if it meant ending the scene with an embrace.  

 

You can claim that Graham simply wanted to end the scene on a cliff hanger, but that makes no sense whatsoever and it's either a damn waste of time, or as I had stated earlier, bad writing.



-- Edited by LJones41 on Wednesday 23rd of November 2016 06:30:20 AM



-- Edited by LJones41 on Wednesday 23rd of November 2016 06:32:19 AM



-- Edited by LJones41 on Wednesday 23rd of November 2016 06:32:45 AM



-- Edited by LJones41 on Wednesday 23rd of November 2016 06:33:05 AM



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 176
Date: Nov 22 4:46 PM, 2016
Permalink  
 

LJones41 wrote:
I'm sorry, but I don't agree.  I really don't see how anyone could come to the conclusion that what happened between Ross and Elizabeth was consensual sex after reading that chapter.  I just don't.

 The thing is that you can't just read that one chapter, it is part of the entire story.



__________________


Initiate

Status: Offline
Posts: 86
Date: Nov 22 4:36 PM, 2016
Permalink  
 

LJones41 wrote:
MrsMartin wrote:
LJones41 wrote:

 

Hasn't anyone ever wondered why Graham didn't simply end the scene with consensual sex, instead of with Ross about to force himself on Elizabeth?

 


 I believe that Winston Graham respected his readers enough to think that they would, if they read this scene in the context of the entire story, be able to determine that it was consensual sex. He would never have created a protagonist that was a rapist. One must remember that most of his novels were mysteries/suspense thrillers and therefore he probably didn't feel in was necessary to spell it out. His stories are not a one time read and then move on to the next one. His stories are the kind that you must read again and again. He is the kind of author that makes you delve into his stories and immerse yourself into the world he has created for you.



-- Edited by MrsMartin on Tuesday 22nd of November 2016 11:57:07 AM


 

 

I'm sorry, but I don't agree.  I really don't see how anyone could come to the conclusion that what happened between Ross and Elizabeth was consensual sex after reading that chapter.  I just don't.


 That is your prerogative.



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 135
Date: Nov 22 4:31 PM, 2016
Permalink  
 

MrsMartin wrote:
LJones41 wrote:

 

Hasn't anyone ever wondered why Graham didn't simply end the scene with consensual sex, instead of with Ross about to force himself on Elizabeth?

 


 I believe that Winston Graham respected his readers enough to think that they would, if they read this scene in the context of the entire story, be able to determine that it was consensual sex. He would never have created a protagonist that was a rapist. One must remember that most of his novels were mysteries/suspense thrillers and therefore he probably didn't feel in was necessary to spell it out. His stories are not a one time read and then move on to the next one. His stories are the kind that you must read again and again. He is the kind of author that makes you delve into his stories and immerse yourself into the world he has created for you.



-- Edited by MrsMartin on Tuesday 22nd of November 2016 11:57:07 AM


 

 

I'm sorry, but I don't agree.  I really don't see how anyone could come to the conclusion that what happened between Ross and Elizabeth was consensual sex after reading that chapter.  I just don't.



__________________


Initiate

Status: Offline
Posts: 86
Date: Nov 22 4:36 AM, 2016
Permalink  
 

MrsMartin wrote:
LJones41 wrote:

 

Hasn't anyone ever wondered why Graham didn't simply end the scene with consensual sex, instead of with Ross about to force himself on Elizabeth?

 


 I believe that Winston Graham respected his readers enough to think that they would, if they read this scene in the context of the entire story, be able to determine that it was consensual sex. He would never have created a protagonist that was a rapist. One must remember that most of his novels were mysteries/suspense thrillers and therefore he probably didn't feel in was necessary to spell it out. His stories are not a one time read and then move on to the next one. His stories are the kind that you must read again and again. He is the kind of author that makes you delve into his stories and immerse yourself into the world he as created for you.


Mrs. Martin - I agree totally.  Interesting, too, that he did write mysteries and this informs his style.  He does not spell everything out, but gives the reader detail throughout his books which inform the event. There is information through Warleggan and other books which reveal Elizabeth's attitudes about it.  He doesn't approve of Ross's behavior (nor do I), but I agree that he would never have created a protagonist who was a rapist.



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 176
Date: Nov 22 3:21 AM, 2016
Permalink  
 

LJones41 wrote:

 

Hasn't anyone ever wondered why Graham didn't simply end the scene with consensual sex, instead of with Ross about to force himself on Elizabeth?

 


 I believe that Winston Graham respected his readers enough to think that they would, if they read this scene in the context of the entire story, be able to determine that it was consensual sex. He would never have created a protagonist that was a rapist. One must remember that most of his novels were mysteries/suspense thrillers and therefore he probably didn't feel in was necessary to spell it out. His stories are not a one time read and then move on to the next one. His stories are the kind that you must read again and again. He is the kind of author that makes you delve into his stories and immerse yourself into the world he has created for you.



-- Edited by MrsMartin on Tuesday 22nd of November 2016 11:57:07 AM

__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 185
Date: Nov 22 2:33 AM, 2016
Permalink  
 

Saw this complete episode today. The episodes seem to be falling into two camps (almost alternating) - those that are nearly true to the books (with WG's wonderful dialogue and twists of plot), and those where DH has taken a general outline and created dialogue out of her head (including jarring modern phrases) to fill in where the books rely on internal dialogue. Episode 8 was the former, Episode 9 was the latter and quite suffered for it.

Having said that, I am still enthralled, and at the moment I think that is because Aidan is carrying the most true storyline. Oh, and Luke Norris helps, too (ha ha). I thought Aidan's performance in this episode was fantastic (despite some badly-written lines). Elinor is doing a good job too, but I'm starting to think that she has trouble with crying? So often, scenes where she is in huge distress only translate to a tortuous facial expression, but no actual tears, red eyes or streaming nose. What do others think? I was hankering (amongst all the angry scenes) for a really good "ugly" crying scene, which I think would have humanised her reaction. Even the running mascara on the beach didn't quite look right.

The drawn out storyline of Elizabeth waiting for Ross was not at all what I imagined from the books. Again, Elizabeth was too warm and emotional, and openly showing her feelings. But as this is not detailed in the book, I will grant DH her interpretation as maybe matching other people's idea.

Loving Captain Henshawe - I think they have got him spot on, and the actor is great. Pity they couldn't do that for Agatha.

They are now making us wait two weeks for the final episode! Some music concert is being shown on Poldark night - it's just not on.



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 185
Date: Nov 22 2:19 AM, 2016
Permalink  
 

Dark Mare wrote:
I suspect Demelza's question "Do you suppose that she ever seriously meant to marry George?" and her subsequent observations that make Elizabeth sound like an aspiring home wrecker in Episode 9 are meant to reinforce the idea that Elizabeth was a willing player even as they let Demelza vent her anger by belittling Ross, suggesting that he had let Elizabeth make a fool of him yet again. 

Demelza's question is a direct line from the book, so I don't think that it is DH's device to try to make Elizabeth look willing, but in line with WG's unfolding of all the motives involved in the incident. Exactly the reason that May 9th had to be portrayed as it was in the book, because everything that comes after is linked.



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 135
Date: Nov 21 9:51 PM, 2016
Permalink  
 

In Debbie Horsfield's defense, she had to write a scene that Winston Graham chose not to write, and she had to write it for a television audience. I don't know whether the BBC has rules regarding what the American television industry refers to as "mature content," but the U.S. over-the-air TV networks do, and she had to write what is arguably the most important scene in Series 2 in a way that could allow it to be edited for the American rebroadcast without losing the idea that this was a consensual sex act, not a rape.

 

 

Wait.  Are you saying that Debbie Horsfield had to change the scene from rape to consensual sex for the sake of American television audiences?

 

 

The scene WG provided her with easily could have been interpreted as the prelude to a rape so Horsfield had to put a thumb on the scale to make Elizabeth more culpable and therefore a willing participant.

 

Hasn't anyone ever wondered why Graham didn't simply end the scene with consensual sex, instead of with Ross about to force himself on Elizabeth?

 



-- Edited by LJones41 on Monday 21st of November 2016 09:55:03 PM

__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 384
Date: Nov 21 12:15 AM, 2016
Permalink  
 

Fijane, please don't apologize. I was not offended. In fact I welcomed the opportunity to try to sort out my feelings on this, and the exercise was helpful. 

In Debbie Horsfield's defense, she had to write a scene that Winston Graham chose not to write, and she had to write it for a television audience. I don't know whether the BBC has rules regarding what the American television industry refers to as "mature content," but the U.S. over-the-air TV networks do, and she had to write what is arguably the most important scene in Series 2 in a way that could allow it to be edited for the American rebroadcast without losing the idea that this was a consensual sex act, not a rape. The scene WG provided her with easily could have been interpreted as the prelude to a rape so Horsfield had to put a thumb on the scale to make Elizabeth more culpable and therefore a willing participant. Even with all she did, the episode still carried a viewer warning in the television listing log that my cable TV system uses (I read somewhere that this was the first time PBS had ever had to put a warning on an episode of "Masterpiece," the PBS anthology series that airs "Poldark" under its banner.).

I suspect Demelza's question "Do you suppose that she ever seriously meant to marry George?" and her subsequent observations that make Elizabeth sound like an aspiring home wrecker in Episode 9 are meant to reinforce the idea that Elizabeth was a willing player even as they let Demelza vent her anger by belittling Ross, suggesting that he had let Elizabeth make a fool of him yet again. 



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 185
Date: Nov 20 2:56 AM, 2016
Permalink  
 


As one of those who berated Ross, I must say I was talking about the incident as portrayed in the book, not Debbie Horsfield's version, which puts a thumb on the scale to make Elizabeth more culpable.

 

My apologies, I didn't realise that my comment about people berating Ross would, obviously, be taken to mean the commenters here on this forum. I was actually referring to another thread I read (on another blog) where the comments were much more negative, and in my opinion less informed on the subject than the wonderful contributors here. Most of the commenters on that thread were non-book readers, and were approaching the incident without the context that readers here have. And I believe they were strongly projecting 21st century attitudes onto an historical drama.

Dark Mare, your analysis was spot on, in comparing Elizabeth's actions as portrayed in the series and in the book. Certainly the show gave strong hints that Elizabeth had almost set up the circumstances. Whereas the book seems to lead the reader through a series of contributing events (the mine accident, the timing of the letter etc) that came together to create the outcome. A minor deviation in any of those events may have turned Ross from his course.

I don't want to open a further discussion about who was at fault, as there has been extensive debate on other threads. I just thought it was interesting that some non-book readers interpreted the show in a different way to what I had expected.



__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 384
Date: Nov 19 12:29 PM, 2016
Permalink  
 

Fijane wrote:

As an aside, I encountered a few friends in a social group who watched Ep 8 last Sunday and were horrified about it. None of them have read the books. Interestingly, they immediately condemned Elizabeth as the cause of the whole thing. One said "I hope she marries that jerk (meaning George) and he makes her miserable!" After reading so many comments berating Ross for his actions, this was quite refreshing!


As one of those who berated Ross, I must say I was talking about the incident as portrayed in the book, not Debbie Horsfield's version, which puts a thumb on the scale to make Elizabeth more culpable. First, she wrote to Ross knowing he had just been through one of the worst days of his life (Here in the U.S., we call that piling on and consider it very uncool.). Second, she sent the letter by her own messenger in the evening so she knew Ross would receive it that night and had to realize it was quite likely he would come to see her immediately so she was sending the wrong message by preparing for bed rather than waiting up for him downstairs and dressed to receive a visitor. When she opened the bedroom door to him, she should have had a candle in hand and been ready to lead him downstairs to talk. If she couldn't get him to agree to join her downstairs, all she needed to say is she was going to need a drink to discuss this matter and she was going downstairs to get one With him or without him. His concern about her summoning help from Mr. Tabb would have led him to accompany her. (Tabb's room was above the kitchen.)

WG's version had Elizabeth's letter arriving in the afternoon and not read by Ross until he got home from Truro around 9 p.m., something Elizabeth could not have anticipated when she mailed the letter. Elizabeth was not dressed for bed when she found Ross in the hall after hearing a noise. She asked him to wait in the hall while she got a candle from her bedroom. Instead, he followed her into her bedroom uninvited. He was behaving inappropriately without provocation. Yes, he was angry, but so what? That doesn't justify boorish behavior. I doubt there is any jurisdiction in the world that considers "not guilty because I was angry" a valid plea.



__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 384
Date: Nov 19 11:54 AM, 2016
Permalink  
 

Fijane wrote:

Like you, Dark Mare, I haven't yet seen Eps 9 and 10, so I watched the clip you posted. I agree with your conclusions about Elizabeth, certainly the idea of Ross coming to live at Trenwith does not seem to have occurred to her. Initially she looks shocked at the thought, and then pensive. Personally, I think that she was expecting Ross to return in some capacity, just not as "master" as Agatha seems to imply.

But...I'm appalled at Agatha's lines in this clip. Agatha would never have just set aside a legal marriage like that, and of course, she was extremely fond of Demelza (her little "bud") and thought she was the best choice for Ross. I feel like DH has been setting us up for this weird Agatha, by making her so possessive of Verity over the past couple of episodes. At first I thought that was just a way to keep Verity in the story, but now it seems like DH wants to portray Agatha as a possessive, conniving person. Not happy with that.


 Oh good, at least one of you doesn't think I'm nuts.

Fijane, I found Agatha's line about feeling sorry for the little kitchen maid rather surprising. I didn't know they had ever told her that Demelza had worked for Ross before he married her. She always called her Ross' Little Bud. Anyway, from something somewhere, I got the sense that Agatha preferred Demelza to Elizabeth so this didn't really ring true.

Then again, WG never really gave the old woman her due. I have always suspected the rumors about Valentine parentage  could be traced back to what was witnessed or heard from Agatha's room on May 9th, either by Agatha herself or her new maid, presumably Lucy Pipe. If it was Agatha, she likely told Lucy, who later would demonstrate that she didn't understand the concept of confidentiality when she carried tales to the village during the toad wars.

I do rather like Agatha played as devious rather than dotty. It makes her clash with George on the day she died more credible. 



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 135
Date: Nov 19 3:25 AM, 2016
Permalink  
 

I don't find it refreshing.  I find it disturbing, ugly and sexist.



-- Edited by LJones41 on Saturday 19th of November 2016 03:25:20 AM

__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 185
Date: Nov 19 12:12 AM, 2016
Permalink  
 

As an aside, I encountered a few friends in a social group who watched Ep 8 last Sunday and were horrified about it. None of them have read the books. Interestingly, they immediately condemned Elizabeth as the cause of the whole thing. One said "I hope she marries that jerk (meaning George) and he makes her miserable!" After reading so many comments berating Ross for his actions, this was quite refreshing!



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 185
Date: Nov 19 12:09 AM, 2016
Permalink  
 

Like you, Dark Mare, I haven't yet seen Eps 9 and 10, so I watched the clip you posted. I agree with your conclusions about Elizabeth, certainly the idea of Ross coming to live at Trenwith does not seem to have occurred to her. Initially she looks shocked at the thought, and then pensive. Personally, I think that she was expecting Ross to return in some capacity, just not as "master" as Agatha seems to imply.

But...I'm appalled at Agatha's lines in this clip. Agatha would never have just set aside a legal marriage like that, and of course, she was extremely fond of Demelza (her little "bud") and thought she was the best choice for Ross. I feel like DH has been setting us up for this weird Agatha, by making her so possessive of Verity over the past couple of episodes. At first I thought that was just a way to keep Verity in the story, but now it seems like DH wants to portray Agatha as a possessive, conniving person. Not happy with that.



__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 384
Date: Nov 18 11:18 PM, 2016
Permalink  
 

In anticipation of Episode 9 finally reaching us here in the U.S., I was trolling YouTube for scenes from that episode. I found the one in which Aunt Agatha is talking to Elizabeth about the prospect of Ross returning to take up residency in Trenwith.

I'd seen Episode 9 on YouTube before, but this time, I paid less attention to Agatha and more to Elizabeth. (I've attached the link below for you to watch again to refresh your memory.) As I watched her closely, I got the distinct impression that Debbie Horsfield's Elizabeth is not expecting Ross to leave Demelza for her after all. In fact, maybe she doesn't want him to do so. Is it possible that Aunt Agatha is talking her into it in this scene without realizing it? (It is likely that it never occurred to Agatha that Elizabeth might prefer George to Ross.) From Elizabeth's facial expressions, it seems at first that she doesn't want Ross to live with her. (Maybe she has already figured out that if he moves in with her, he will soon be pining for Demelza. By "taking" Ross from the miner's daughter, she would simply be changing places with her. How insulting! Better to marry George and let Ross stay put.) But Elizabeth being Elizabeth, she seems to change her mind as she hears Agatha out. Maybe she likes the idea of longing for "the better man," and she knows that certainly isn't George.

Anyway, watch it again and see whether you think I'm onto something or I'm just nuts:


https://youtu.be/20JzTilhCKo



-- Edited by Dark Mare on Friday 18th of November 2016 11:22:15 PM

__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 270
Date: Nov 5 9:34 AM, 2016
Permalink  
 

Mrs Gimlett wrote:

There is a thread which I started about the discrepancies throughout the novels, but at the time no-one seemed interested in taking it forward.  Perhaps we could try again?  I remember I mentioned John Trevaunance, who began as a childless widower and ended as a confirmed bachelor!  Also Lord Devoran, whose niece was Betty, but later on she becomes his daughter.

I am going off topic here, but we could continue in the right place.

 


 I, too would be interested in a thread about the discrepancies throughout the novels.

Stella



__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 384
Date: Nov 4 7:35 PM, 2016
Permalink  
 

Mrs Gimlett wrote:

Dark Mare, I rather got the impression that you would have liked Ross (in the books) to grovel to Demelza with an abject apology.  Obviously, I got the wrong end of the stick, so my apologies to you.

I do agree with you about the discrepancies which occur throughout the books, although I do not have detailed enough information about America to know locations of the War of Independence. I thought, but haven't checked, that Ross sustained his injuries at the James River, but maybe that was his musket ball in the ankle injury. 

There is a thread which I started about the discrepancies throughout the novels, but at the time no-one seemed interested in taking it forward.  Perhaps we could try again?  I remember I mentioned John Trevaunance, who began as a childless widower and ended as a confirmed bachelor!  Also Lord Devoran, whose niece was Betty, but later on she becomes his daughter.

I am going off topic here, but we could continue in the right place.

As for the continuity on screen, I hadn't noticed any of what you mention.  However, I am not a frequent watcher of TV and as most episodes seem to take place in semi-darkness it takes  all my concentration to follow what's happening. And, unfortunately, some of it shouldn't be happening!

 


 Oh, Mrs. Gimlett, please don't apologize. I originally wrote that sentence as part of the preceding paragraph, but when I was reading it over, I thought the sentence could stand alone. (The reference to groveling comes from one of my favorite movie scenes, the apology scene at the end of "American President," which includes the line "There will be groveling involved.") 

Ross' injuries are spelled out on Page 51 of the Kindle edition of "Ross Poldark" -- I love Kindle because it enables me to find things in a minute. Yes, the ankle injury did occur in the fighting along the James River in Virginia. 

If you want to try again with that thread, count me in. My favorite discrepancy involves Caroline's Aunt Sarah. In "Warleggan," she and her wealthy London merchant husband have about seven children, but when she reappears in the last five books, she is portrayed as a merry widow whose family seemingly consists of one niece, Caroline. One can only imagine how a mother could fall out with all seven of her children. 

I started compiling a calendar of Poldark events after I noticed an odd coincidence: May 9th is not only the day that will live in infamy in Ross' marriage and Elizabeth's life but also the day Ross' mother died. It is a project I pick up and put down so I have not yet found any others that are quite that noteworthy. 



__________________


Initiate

Status: Offline
Posts: 86
Date: Nov 4 3:38 PM, 2016
Permalink  
 

You are right, of course. But nothing else in this series makes sense.



__________________


Honorary Life Member. Forum Moderator

Status: Offline
Posts: 719
Date: Nov 4 3:33 PM, 2016
Permalink  
 

I am fairly sure that Ross doesn't sign up for the Volunteers for quite some while yet.  He is only just at the beginning of his period of prosperity and many things happen before the Volunteers come along - offers of a magistracy, an MP and trips to France and much more swashbuckling stuff.

In the books he does say he could re-join the army, but for good reasons does not want to.  Perhaps it is just that, teasing us.  Not long to wait to find out!



__________________


Initiate

Status: Offline
Posts: 86
Date: Nov 4 2:01 PM, 2016
Permalink  
 

I just had a lightbulb moment.  One of the things that is so disturbing in the preview is it appears that Ross is joining the army. That did not happen. But doesn't he belong to a group called the Volunteers?  And isn't he on Volunteer business when Demelza takes Hugh to Seal Cove?  Then it would be a case of the preview whipping us up into a frenzy over something that really doesn't occur. Which does make sense.  Damn them. 



__________________


Honorary Life Member. Forum Moderator

Status: Offline
Posts: 719
Date: Nov 4 9:35 AM, 2016
Permalink  
 

Dark Mare, I rather got the impression that you would have liked Ross (in the books) to grovel to Demelza with an abject apology.  Obviously, I got the wrong end of the stick, so my apologies to you.

I do agree with you about the discrepancies which occur throughout the books, although I do not have detailed enough information about America to know locations of the War of Independence. I thought, but haven't checked, that Ross sustained his injuries at the James River, but maybe that was his musket ball in the ankle injury. 

There is a thread which I started about the discrepancies throughout the novels, but at the time no-one seemed interested in taking it forward.  Perhaps we could try again?  I remember I mentioned John Trevaunance, who began as a childless widower and ended as a confirmed bachelor!  Also Lord Devoran, whose niece was Betty, but later on she becomes his daughter.

I am going off topic here, but we could continue in the right place.

As for the continuity on screen, I hadn't noticed any of what you mention.  However, I am not a frequent watcher of TV and as most episodes seem to take place in semi-darkness it takes  all my concentration to follow what's happening. And, unfortunately, some of it shouldn't be happening!

 



__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 384
Date: Nov 4 8:48 AM, 2016
Permalink  
 

Mrs Gimlett wrote:
 

Are you not happy with the books, Dark Mare?  You seem to want to change what WG wrote. I would just be extremely happy if what he wrote was shown on screen, instead of all this messing about with it.


Mrs. Gimlett,

WG didn't write the scene that has me puzzled. Debbie Horsfield did. I get why Ross rode by Trenwith the first time, stopping and then galloping off home. (Given the distance he was from the house and what Elizabeth was wearing as she stood at the window  -- a light brown print dress, I believe -- Ross probably didn't even noticed her there.) He was choosing to stay with Demelza. But the second time, I don't get. Why stand there watching George and Elizabeth? To regret his choice, to make Elizabeth regret hers or to beat himself up for trying to prevent the wedding and destroying his own marriage in the process?

Am I unhappy with the books? No, but I must admit I dislike the number of discrepancies and errors that exist from book to book, presumably because WG didn't reread the previous books before writing a new one. You would think that someone would have been keeping the equivalent of a TV series' show bible, detailing the history and pertinent facts about each character and key past events in the series, to consult, or his publishers would have assigned only editors who had closely read the previous Poldark books to work on each new one. Surely someone should have noticed, for example, that Ross' signature scar was received from a bayonet during a skirmish in New York in "Ross Poldark" and a sword in Pennsylvania in "Warleggan" before the later book went to press. (If, as he also wrote, Ross' regiment served under Cornwallis' command, Ross was in the war's southern theater, Virginia, North Carolina, etc., before he was sent to New York. He wasn't even in a battle in Pennsylvania.) It is ironic that a series known for its careful historical research should have errors created by failing to consult previous books in the series.

(Then again, the series is also continuity-challenged. For example, last season, in the scene in which Ross and Demelza learn that copper has been found in Wheal Leisure, we see Ross embrace Demelza and to start turning her around. At the start he is not wearing his hat, but in the middle of the spin he is wearing the hat, but at the end he is again hatless. This season's most noticeable gaffe so far has Demelza changing her clothes twice without dismounting during a ride to Truro. She starts wearing a green skirt, switches to a red skirt and is back in the green skirt at the end of the ride.) 



-- Edited by Dark Mare on Friday 4th of November 2016 08:50:27 AM

__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 135
Date: Nov 4 12:57 AM, 2016
Permalink  
 

People have been sympathising with Elizabeth and hating Demelza! It has already been said that Tankard was George's attorney not his companion at parties. There is so much wrong with this series and I think its unpopularity should be drawn to the attention of Mammoth with explanations so that they know although it is probably too late as the filming for series 3 began at the start of September.

 

This series is not unpopular.  And it is no more faithful than the 1975-77 series, which was not completely faithful either.  Were there a lot of complaints about the changes made forty years ago?  I don't mind some of the changes.  But I don't approve of all of them.

 This has been the case for a lot of film and television adaptations of novels and plays throughout the years.  And I suspect that nothing will really change.



-- Edited by LJones41 on Friday 4th of November 2016 12:57:45 AM

__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 270
Date: Nov 3 8:51 PM, 2016
Permalink  
 



JanetMaison wrote:

 


 

 I've already emailed Billy at Mammoth asking if the series would end with Warleggan.  He said yes.  Then I said I had other questions and who could I ask.  He said "ask me."  So I sent off my detailed email yesterday with my main concerns.  Haven't heard back yet.



-- Edited by JanetMaison on Thursday 3rd of November 2016 08:29:39 PM


 Do you know what is Billy's position in Mammoth? I have to say that Mammoth would say this series ends with Warleggan but that does not mean it will end in the same way as in the book. I am, however, concerned about more than just the ending. I think this  entire series has been a distortion of the books which has changed the characters and the story to such an extent that it is no longer Winston Graham's work. People have been sympathising with Elizabeth and hating Demelza! It has already been said that Tankard was George's attorney not his companion at parties. There is so much wrong with this series and I think its unpopularity should be drawn to the attention of Mammoth with explanations so that they know although it is probably too late as the filming for series 3 began at the start of September.



__________________


Initiate

Status: Offline
Posts: 86
Date: Nov 3 8:28 PM, 2016
Permalink  
 

Stella Poldark wrote:
JanetMaison wrote:

"I would just be extremely happy if what he wrote was shown on screen, instead of all this messing about with it."

Yes, yes, yes.


 I am thinking seriously about watching it all again and noting all deviations from the books and how they distort the characters, sometimes beyond recognition. Then I shall think about writing to Mammoth with my record of series 2 and ask them what on earth they think they have produced as it bears little resemblance to the books. What a missed opportunity to avoid the mistakes of the 1970s version and to produce something worth watching. 


 I've already emailed Billy at Mammoth asking if the series would end with Warleggan.  He said yes.  Then I said I had other questions and who could I ask.  He said "ask me."  So I sent off my detailed email yesterday with my main concerns.  Haven't heard back yet.



-- Edited by JanetMaison on Thursday 3rd of November 2016 08:29:39 PM

__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 270
Date: Nov 3 8:25 PM, 2016
Permalink  
 

JanetMaison wrote:

"I would just be extremely happy if what he wrote was shown on screen, instead of all this messing about with it."

Yes, yes, yes.


 I am thinking seriously about watching it all again and noting all deviations from the books and how they distort the characters, sometimes beyond recognition. Then I shall think about writing to Mammoth with my record of series 2 and ask them what on earth they think they have produced as it bears little resemblance to the books. What a missed opportunity to avoid the mistakes of the 1970s version and to produce something worth watching. 



__________________


Initiate

Status: Offline
Posts: 86
Date: Nov 3 7:58 PM, 2016
Permalink  
 

"I would just be extremely happy if what he wrote was shown on screen, instead of all this messing about with it."

Yes, yes, yes.



__________________


Honorary Life Member. Forum Moderator

Status: Offline
Posts: 719
Date: Nov 3 6:50 PM, 2016
Permalink  
 

Dark Mare wrote:

 


OK, but then why did he stop and linger, watching Elizabeth and George walk into the house? To assure himself that things have turned out the way they would have had he not interfered so no harm, no foul? (No, Elizabeth and Agatha certainly would not agree.) There was no discreet wave from Elizabeth behind George's back so the Elizabeth door is definitely closed, locked and bolted. The Demelza door is closed too -- at least for now. So what's left? Wallowing in self-pity? Enjoying Grace's new bounty alone? Going back into the army?

How about composing and delivering a carefully thought-out and heart-felt apology to Demelza, complete with groveling? It couldn't hurt the situation, could it?


 

Probably for the same reason as anyone would stop and look at an unusual sight - a coach and horses drawing up to a much loved familiar building that Ross had known all his life.  If he happened to be trotting by, he would pull up and puzzle about why they were there. 

Are you not happy with the books, Dark Mare?  You seem to want to change what WG wrote. I would just be extremely happy if what he wrote was shown on screen, instead of all this messing about with it.



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 135
Date: Nov 3 5:22 PM, 2016
Permalink  
 

OK, but then why did he stop and linger, watching Elizabeth and George walk into the house? To assure himself that things have turned out the way they would have had he not interfered so no harm, no foul? (No, Elizabeth and Agatha certainly would not agree.) There was no discreet wave from Elizabeth behind George's back so the Elizabeth door is definitely closed, locked and bolted.

How do we know this is certain?  We're near the end of the fourth novel.  There are eight more novels to cover. 



__________________


Initiate

Status: Offline
Posts: 86
Date: Nov 2 5:59 PM, 2016
Permalink  
 

MrsMartin wrote:

I just don't know Andrew Graham could have approved all the changes to his father's story. One of the things I loved about this story is how Ross and Demelza reconcile, I just can't see that happening the way it is being portrayed.


I agree. One of my very favorite parts. All the little steps moving towards Christmas Eve. The good news, the fight with George and Ross inviting Demelza to go shopping, the trip to Truro and the scene in the bedroom after.  There's just no way it can all be covered. 



__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 384
Date: Nov 2 5:29 PM, 2016
Permalink  
 

Mrs Gimlett wrote:

Dark Mare, I don't think he consciously rode to Trenwith.  I got the feeling he just happened to be passing by, although in the books, Trenwith was not on any route used on a regular basis.  Since the geography of the TV series is all over the place, no one worries about a little inaccuracy like that.

 


OK, but then why did he stop and linger, watching Elizabeth and George walk into the house? To assure himself that things have turned out the way they would have had he not interfered so no harm, no foul? (No, Elizabeth and Agatha certainly would not agree.) There was no discreet wave from Elizabeth behind George's back so the Elizabeth door is definitely closed, locked and bolted. The Demelza door is closed too -- at least for now. So what's left? Wallowing in self-pity? Enjoying Grace's new bounty alone? Going back into the army?

How about composing and delivering a carefully thought-out and heart-felt apology to Demelza, complete with groveling? It couldn't hurt the situation, could it?



__________________


Student

Status: Offline
Posts: 176
Date: Nov 2 5:17 PM, 2016
Permalink  
 

I just don't know Andrew Graham could have approved all the changes to his father's story. One of the things I loved about this story is how Ross and Demelza reconcile, I just can't see that happening the way it is being portrayed.



__________________


Initiate

Status: Offline
Posts: 86
Date: Nov 2 2:55 PM, 2016
Permalink  
 

I don't see how it's possible, but here's the reply to an email I sent to Mammoth Screen yesterday.  By the way, Billy's email is Billy@Mammothscreen.com. 

Hello Janet,

 

Following your email to Mammoths enquires address I can confirm that series 2 will conclude the events in Winston Grahams Warleggan title. Series 3 draws upon events in the following two titles of the Poldark novel series.

 

Regards,

 

B

 

Billy Cook

Script Editor

Poldark 3

 

Mammoth Screen Limited, 142-144 New Cavendish St, London, W1W 6YF

0207 268 0050



__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 270
Date: Nov 2 12:40 PM, 2016
Permalink  
 

Bella wrote:

 

Despite the reviews and synopsis I am hopeful of a reconciliation at the end of series 2 if not it will seem as if there isnt one at all, Series 3 is covering The Black Moon but only half of The Four Swans, so by the end of series 3 the shoe will be on the other foot so to speak. That will be the real cliff Hanger!!!!


 There is much in The Black Moon about the healing of the relationship between Ross and Demelza which, as you would expect, is gradual but, as we know, this process begins at the end of Warleggan. I think we have to brace ourselves for a cliff hanger ending to series 2. I think what is dictating some of this is the need for audience figures so any gimmick to keep people watching seems to be an important factor. The BBC is having to compete now in a way it didn't have to before - such a pity because it affects the quality of these dramas. If the budget were larger there could have been more characters and more episodes. The BBC is the Cinderella of broadcasting now. It does a great job with little money. 



__________________


Newbie

Status: Offline
Posts: 18
Date: Nov 2 10:02 AM, 2016
Permalink  
 

Despite the reviews and synopsis I am hopeful of a reconciliation at the end of series 2 if not it will seem as if there isnt one at all, Series 3 is covering The Black Moon but only half of The Four Swans, so by the end of series 3 the shoe will be on the other foot so to speak. That will be the real cliff Hanger!!!!



__________________


Honorary Life Member. Forum Moderator

Status: Offline
Posts: 719
Date: Nov 2 9:23 AM, 2016
Permalink  
 

Dark Mare, I don't think he consciously rode to Trenwith.  I got the feeling he just happened to be passing by, although in the books, Trenwith was not on any route used on a regular basis.  Since the geography of the TV series is all over the place, no one worries about a little inaccuracy like that.

 

FiJane, you cannot remember Caroline's engagement because it was only a rumour.  Lord Coniston had proposed to her and news had got out, but when Ross visited Caroline in Hatton Gardens, he found she had not accepted.  That was what threw his visit awry to begin with and why he was able to persuade Caroline to return to Cornwall with him.



__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 384
Date: Nov 2 9:06 AM, 2016
Permalink  
 

Anyone have any idea why Ross rode to Trenwith after Demelza failed to show much enthusiasm for the discovery at Wheal Grace? He knew Elizabeth and George were married, but he couldn't have known they would be returning to Trenwith at just that moment. So why did he go there? To size up the place to make an offer to buy it with all his new wealth? Hoping Verity was visiting so she could be happy for him? To see Aunt Agatha, unaware of the earful she waiting to give him for disappointing her and Elizabeth? To wish for a time machine to appear to whisk him back to 9:30 p.m. May 9th so he could look about for lights in the public areas of the house and, seeing none, decide to go home and return in the morning? 

 

 

 



__________________


Undergraduate

Status: Offline
Posts: 384
Date: Nov 2 3:38 AM, 2016
Permalink  
 

Sounds like you all need a serving of Poldark Dish from Marlise Boland and Elyse Ashton, the crazy ladies at the Anglophile Channel. This is their recap of Episode 9:

https://youtu.be/L_EoglaYq7M



__________________
1 2  >  Last»  | Page of 2  sorted by
 
Quick Reply

Please log in to post quick replies.