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Post Info TOPIC: Demelza & Hugh Armitage


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Date: Feb 11 8:43 PM, 2017
Demelza & Hugh Armitage
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I really don't think Demelza intended to have a physical affair with Hugh. As I see it, she was charmed by him as a handsome and romantic young man, who openly adored her - while Ross could rarely be accused of being romantic! Until the day of the seal cove visit - indeed, until they were on the beach - I think it was nothing more than a fantasy romance to her. Then the warmth and privacy began to meld reality and fantasy, and the recollection of Jud's tale about Ross and Elizabeth weakened her resistance - not in the sense of consciously wanting revenge, but in undermining her hard-won confidence in herself. If Ross didn't love her, at least this young man did.    

I don't see her as naive and innocent, nor as selfish. I think she slid into it as an incremental thing, as so often happens in real life. She let herself persuade herself of Hugh's arguments, at least for that moment, though the sensible side of her knew it wasn't true. Hence she both felt guilty and not-guilty at the same time - guilty because she knew it would hurt Ross, but she couldn't quite regret it because that earthy side of her knew it had been something beautiful but never-to-be repeated. 



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Date: Feb 11 5:34 PM, 2017
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I don't think Demelza had approached her affair with Hugh Armitage with naive eyes.  I do not believe she had been manipulated by Hugh to sleep with him.  She had made up her mind not long after learning that Ross and Elizabeth had seen each other in that churchyard by Jud.  Both she and Hugh went into their affair with their eyes wide open.  I believe Hugh was in love with Demelza in his own youthful way.  And I believe Demelza was in love with Hugh - but not as much as she was in love with Ross.

I don't see the need to paint Demelza and Hugh's affair as one in which a naive woman's innocence was manipulated by a scheming man.  Both knew what they wanted and both knew what they were doing.  And to paint Hugh as being selfish and not Demelza doesn't seem right to me.  In a way, both were selfish.  Considering that love is selfish anyway, I don't really find this surprising.

-- Edited by LJones41 on Saturday 11th of February 2017 05:40:46 PM



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Welcome to the forum, Dave.  Hope you have plenty of ideas for discussion.  Enjoy what is on offer.

It sounds as though you haven't read the books after Jeremy P. 

May I make a suggestion?  Get yourself a copy of books 4-12 and settle down for a marathon read.  I don't think you'll be disappointed.  The is so much more to the written word and you will find answers and resolutions to your queries.

As you will most likely have read here, the TV series isn't that faithful to the books in series 2.

We look forward to hearing all your views.

Mrs G



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Date: Dec 23 4:06 AM, 2016
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SusanneMcCarthy wrote:

I think Demelza was quite naive about Hugh. She was quite well able to recognise and deal with all the men who were plainly after a bit of rumpy-pumpy, but I don't think she realised it would come to that with Hugh. His approach was so different to the likes of Hugh Bodruggan or Malcolm McNeil. She saw him in a romantic mist - declaring eternal love, writing her such lovely poems. And because she was unsuspecting, she found it difficult to give him a flat out refusal when he persuaded her to go to the seal cove - she couldn't think of a good enough reason, she didn't want to upset him, and it would have felt impolite. 

Then when they were there, it was a time-out-of-time. A hot day, a secluded cove, a man who had just shared a tragic secret. Demelza was a very "giving" person, and he seemed to play on that. 

I definitely don't think it was revenge - but the thought that passed through her mind was not so much the "9th May incident" but Jud's little bit of gossip about seeing Ross with Elizabeth, making more of it than had really happened, just when she had probably been starting to feel more secure in her relationship with Ross again. I think that caused her to wobble at the critical moment.

As for how Hugh felt about her... I think it was what he thought was love, but it was so completely lacking in honour, or any concern for the man who had saved his life, that it couldn't be love at all. It was pure selfishness.


Nicely put, Susanne. You've touched on every point that has occurred to me but one, and you articulated them well. I especially agree about Jud's revelation. I suspect, like me, you are remembering this conversation from the end of "Warleggan":

      (Ross:) "I want to tell you that Elizabeth means nothing to me anymore."
      (Demelza:) "Dont say that, Ross. I shouldnt want for you to say more than you feel" 
      (Ross:) "But I do feel it"
      (Demelza:) "Yes, at present. But then again sometime, perhaps next month, perhaps next year ..."

(I love the cadence of that final sentence. It has always reminded me of "Casablanca": "Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but soon and for the rest of your life.")

Demelza would like to believe him, but she has been down this road before with Ross too many times. Not where Elizabeth was concerned, but with closing Wheal Grace and other things important to their lives. 

As for the thing you didn't mention that also occurred to me, it is Demelza's ambition for Ross. She felt he should occupy a more august place in the world because, well, because he's Ross. Now things were starting to turn in his favor, and he was getting more comfortable with the idea. She still was disappointed that he turned down the magistrate position -- for good reason (He could do more to prevent future Jim Carters on the bench.). I suspect she didn't know how to discourage Hugh Armitage permanently without running the risk of offending the Boscawens, and if Ross was going to rise in the world, he needed to be on good terms with both the Bassetts and the Boscawens. 

There is a very telling incident from this period. Demelza and Ross are at a dinner at either the Bassetts' or the Boscawens' (I forget which), and another of the guests is an aged and respected general, who is placed beside Demelza at dinner. The old man keeps putting his hand on her leg, and she keeps moving away until she is practically in Dwight Enys' lap -- the man sitting on her other side. She is at a loss as to what she can do to make the old man stop. He is an important guest so she can't publicly offend him, but she doesn't like what he is doing. She does nothing, and as soon as dinner is over, she excuses herself to find a mirror. To her dismay, her frock is marked with grease stains from the man's hand. Does she say anything to anyone? Of course not. She makes a note to herself to ask Ross whether putting one's hand on the leg of the woman sitting next to one is the done thing and whether he does it. Unfortunately, that darn WG didn't write that conversation. It would have been interesting to learn what advice Ross would give for handling such problems. (Hold a fork on her thigh, tines facing up? Send the general the ruined dress and the bill for a replacement? Actually, Ross probably would have said, "Tell the old goat to keep his hands to himself, and don't worry about who hears you.")

As for Hugh Armitage, maybe someone quite young becomes extremely selfish after his life suddenly acquires a use-by date. I don't see a spoiled rich kid used to taking whatever he wanted, like Valentine. Instead of sending him to school, his family sent him to sea at 14 or thereabouts. He sounded like the good kid who did what he was told, dotted all the "i's" and crossed all the "t's," and life still didn't turn out for him.

Maybe once he knew his life would soon be over, he no longer felt gratitude for being rescued. Maybe that rescue -- and even meeting Demelza -- made the thought of dying more painful. If you starve or die of disease in a prisoner-of-war camp, death is a liberation. 



-- Edited by Dark Mare on Friday 23rd of December 2016 04:12:50 AM

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I think Demelza was quite naive about Hugh. She was quite well able to recognise and deal with all the men who were plainly after a bit of rumpy-pumpy, but I don't think she realised it would come to that with Hugh. His approach was so different to the likes of Hugh Bodruggan or Malcolm McNeil. She saw him in a romantic mist - declaring eternal love, writing her such lovely poems. And because she was unsuspecting, she found it difficult to give him a flat out refusal when he persuaded her to go to the seal cove - she couldn't think of a good enough reason, she didn't want to upset him, and it would have felt impolite. 

Then when they were there, it was a time-out-of-time. A hot day, a secluded cove, a man who had just shared a tragic secret. Demelza was a very "giving" person, and he seemed to play on that. 

I definitely don't think it was revenge - but the thought that passed through her mind was not so much the "9th May incident" but Jud's little bit of gossip about seeing Ross with Elizabeth, making more of it than had really happened, just when she had probably been starting to feel more secure in her relationship with Ross again. I think that caused her to wobble at the critical moment.

As for how Hugh felt about her... I think it was what he thought was love, but it was so completely lacking in honour, or any concern for the man who had saved his life, that it couldn't be love at all. It was pure selfishness.



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I have not read that far in the books ( I am at the third book) how ever in the 2015-16 film she comes in to Warleggan's party dressed to the part ( all she needed was a Tiara with flashing sign saying "I'm Easy"). However when Margaret comes over to join the group with George and his toady and before O'Neil joins them , Demelza and Margaret have their back and forth catty talk. I think it is then that Demelza is starting to have second thoughts  about joining the "Whore Wives Club". In the film Demelza looked tentative when O'Neil starts coming on to her. Now in the book it may be different , looking forward to that episode. 

 



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I agree that HA was no gentleman. I think he was a predator who found Demelza an easy prey. As I recall, she'd only set eyes on him three times before she succumbed. He won his battle with a few poems and a couple of smoldering looks. I imagine someone like Caroline would have found his approach pathetic; unfortunately, Demelza was swept off her feet. I believe she already half had it in her mind to submit to HA when she insensitively shared with Ross her bizarre "nameless man/woman" fantasy. I remember a remark by one of the people interviewed in a program about the original series. The interviewee said something like, once Ross had committed adultery Demelza, not to be outdone, had to have her illicit fling too.

HollyHock,

I  do not believe Hugh Armitage a predator or (God Forbid) Demelza an easy prey!  Demelza was certainly capable of fighting off a randy man as she did in Warleggan with MacNeil.  Rather both characters being a compilation of what had gone on before in their lives and coming together at that specific moment in time when it all came together for both of them.  Ultimately it is the genius descriptive writing of Winston Graham that can cause us to infuse our own imagination into these characters .....and enjoy every minute of it!!



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It's so wonderful to have everyone's response to my post. I won't address every point, but thank you for giving me the different perspectives. I'm only on "Ross" in my re-read, so when I get to TFS I will read about Hugh again with different eyes, and I suspect that my original perception of the incident may undergo a change!  Pity, because I really want to believe the best of Demelza (biased, I know).

Hollyhock, you are so right about Demelza getting away with this lightly. It seems to me that someone should have seen something suspicious that day. Maybe they did, but WG couldn't see a way to make it fit with the story, so he left them out.

A horrible thought has just occurred - surely in the TV series they won't emphasise this as a revenge act? Please no.



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Mrs Gimlett-thanks for reminding me of the sandy strip details. (Sounds like you had a lovely outing.) I find it painful to re-read even sections of TFS; it is such an emotional ordeal, switching as it does between Demelza's seduction and Morwenna's heartbreaking brutalization. I found it the most difficult of all the novels.

I agree that HA was no gentleman. I think he was a predator who found Demelza an easy prey. As I recall, she'd only set eyes on him three times before she succumbed. He won his battle with a few poems and a couple of smoldering looks. I imagine someone like Caroline would have found his approach pathetic; unfortunately, Demelza was swept off her feet. I believe she already half had it in her mind to submit to HA when she insensitively shared with Ross her bizarre "nameless man/woman" fantasy. I remember a remark by one of the people interviewed in a program about the original series. The interviewee said something like, once Ross had committed adultery Demelza, not to be outdone, had to have her illicit fling too.

I know we have different opinions about Demelza's guilt, or lack of, but that is not the critical issue for me. My biggest disappointment still is that she never apologizes to Ross; oh, not for committing adultery, no accounting for taste, but she admits she had a "compulsive sensuous impulse to lie with another man for once in her life." So she was going to cheat. My disappointment lies in the fact that she didn't have the strength of character to apologize to Ross for all the anguish she caused him with her very open affair of the heart. At the end of Warleggan, Ross offers her that lovely, heart-melting apology for all the pain he caused her:

`And there's one other thing I want you to know,' he added. `That is how deeply sorry I am that I ever hurt you in the first place - in May, I mean. You were so undeserving of any harm. All these months. I know how you will have felt. I want you to know that. If you had gone off with McNeil, I should have had only myself to blame.'

That was why Ross felt cheated by HA's death; because unlike his sharing with Demelza his realization that he loved her over the ideal of Elizabeth, Demelza never told him that even if HA had lived, she would have chosen him, Ross, over whatever it was that HA gave her. If she had told him that HA could never replace him in her heart I think Ross would have been satisfied, adultery or not. Instead, Demelza selfishly focuses on her own feelings, again. This was another missed opportunity for meaningful conservation and a true reconciliation. (However that would have changed the plot of the AT.)

 



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Great Discussion

This is such a great storyline, and leaves a lot to the imagination, rightly or wrongly however I felt let down by Demelza and disappointed after this whole affair, not for what happened with Hugh, but for how she dealt with it afterwards, Ross always gets chastised for his actions, but it seems here that Demelza although probably suffering inwardly never shows any remorse or regret or understanding towards Ross' feelings. 

I felt this gets worse after the whole Monk Adderley storyline, yet again Ross is made to feel that he is in the wrong and Demelza blames him for the incident yet I rather think she had a very large part to play and handles the whole situation badly.

 



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Hollyhock - I too thought Demelza quite enjoyed herself on that crescent of sand by seal hole cave.  But I think the reasons for her submitting to Hugh were quite complicated.  In the back of her mind was the knowledge that Ross had seen Elizabeth (gossip from Jud) and she didn't know quite what was going on there because Ross hadn't told her of it.  Secondly, Hugh had just informed her that he was going blind and she felt terribly sorry for him.  He was young, good looking and there was a spark between them; she couldn't do other than pity his situation. I think she started off with good intentions and was quite sure she was strong enough to resist him.  However, Hugh persisted and kissed her and suddenly she felt differently. Once she had given in, I think it was wholeheartedly, (perhaps like Elizabeth eventually did).

The reason no-one saw them was because Nampara Cove, where the boat was kept, was their private property.  Nobody else went there (after the smuggling incidents).  The village was a good distance away - this is something else awry with the TV series - and the cave where the seals were was only accessible by sea.  The strand of sand they fetched up on was just a small strip left by the ebbing tide (such as I was on today) and because it was such a private place the event probably seemed quite unreal, difficult to relate to everyday things.  Not that I am condoning it, but I think Hugh was very much in the wrong by pursuing her as he did, because he knew she had some feeling for him.  A real gentleman would have desisted. 

I have always thought it strange that Ross didn't warn him off.  He liked Hugh, and knew of the fondness between him and Demelza , but somehow he acted in a way contrary to normal.  It would only have taken a few words and that would have been that, but for some reason it didn't happen.

Unlike you, Hollyhock, I think Demelza did suffer great guilt about what had happened.  She was up half the night worrying about it, considering how she had betrayed Ross' trust. It didn't alter her feelings for her husband, but I believe she was very uncomfortable for a long time.

The end of that book, though, when Ross and Demelza discuss her infatuation and Hugh's death, is the closest they come to an understanding of their situation out of all their many misunderstandings and differences.  Clowance de-fusing the scene is the equivalent of the wine fermenting, a lovely touch.



-- Edited by Mrs Gimlett on Tuesday 29th of November 2016 07:49:38 PM

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Fijane wrote

Thirdly, from all Demelza'a musings, both before and after, I felt she viewed this as a gift that she could give him. I don't sense any thought of mutual engagement (physical or spiritual) but more a bestowment of access to her body. It almost seems maternal, a granting of a wish.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Fijane--I totally agree that WG leaves a lot to the reader's interpretation.  For example, my interpretation of Demelza's sexual encounter is totally different. I get the impression that she was a very active participant in an act that gave her a great deal of satisfaction. The description of Demelza's surrender to HA is racy stuff for any time period: 

"Her heart was beating as if there was a drum inside her. Her mouth was so dry she could not swallow. The nakedness of her body inside her frock seemed to have suddenly become more apparent to her, seemed to flower. She gave a slight groan which she tried to suppress altogether but could not quite."

Then two days later after making love with Ross, she appears to remember her beach romp fondly, comparatively, and certainly without remorse:

"She had given herself to him with warmth and sensuous ease. There had been little or no embarrassment. It had happened, cut off from the rest of the world, under the hot sun."

I also seem to remember that the tryst may have lasted for quite some time . I think they left Nampara about 10 in the morning and didn't return until after 1:00. Even given their self-deluding excuse of a venture to Seal Cove, they had time for an indulgent roll around in the sand. 

The thing that always get me is that Ross always get caught when he does something that he shouldn't. Demelza never does. I find it incredible that not one of the village busybodies saw them going off together that day; no one was trolling the beach; no one saw them rolling around naked in the sand in broad daylight, in the middle of the day. 

 



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Fijane wrote:

Secondly, as a young man of his times, and inexperienced, I would doubt that it would cross his mind that she be anything more than passive in the act. I imagined it to be quite shortlived, given his inexperience and probably heightened anticipation. I certainly don't imagine a long afternoon of leisurely lovemaking. Sometimes we view characters as if they lived in the modern day, and therefore assume that Demelza would have done what a 21st century woman did. It was always assumed that sex was for men, and that women's reward for submitting was children. I do believe that couples in past times did mutually enjoy lovemaking, but I believe that it was something that they discovered together over the period of marriage, and did not ever mention outside their bedroom.

All the other issues mentioned below come into play as well (there is no simple act in any of WG's writings). But I do think that this is part of the reason that WG leaves it that Ross never knows for sure. If Ross found out for certain, then the beach part would become central to the story, and therefore diminish the impact of Demelza being emotionally touched by another man.


 Fjane

I found your post very interesting. There is only one thing that I disagree with. Hugh and that is Hugh's inexperience. 

'Yes, let me explain, as I wished to explain before. You think I set up an ideal which is impossible of attainment. But all poets are not romantic. I have not been a romantic, believe me. I've been in the navy since I was fourteen and Ive knocked about and seen a lot of life, much of it sordid. I have seen and known a number of women. I have no illusions about them.'

I truly like your interpretation of Winston Graham's reason for the uncertain knowledge that Ross has. I agree that if Ross had known about what had happened, that afternoon on the beach, that the act would have been become the focus and would have diminish the impact of Demelza's unfaithful heart. 

 



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This is a fascinating thread, thanks everyone for your comments. But as I read them all, it seems to me that I am alone in believing that Demelza did not "actively participate" in Hugh's actions on the beach. It was only while reading this thread that I became aware that other people seem to see the incident differently to me.

I have never believed that for Demelza it was anything other than a lie-back-and-think-of-England moment. Over the past few weeks I have pondered what did I read, that gave me that impression - here are my thoughts:

Firstly, HA's words - "let me make love to you" - in his mind it is something he will do to her, not with her. He is asking permission to use her.

Secondly, as a young man of his times, and inexperienced, I would doubt that it would cross his mind that she be anything more than passive in the act. I imagined it to be quite shortlived, given his inexperience and probably heightened anticipation. I certainly don't imagine a long afternoon of leisurely lovemaking. Sometimes we view characters as if they lived in the modern day, and therefore assume that Demelza would have done what a 21st century woman did. It was always assumed that sex was for men, and that women's reward for submitting was children. I do believe that couples in past times did mutually enjoy lovemaking, but I believe that it was something that they discovered together over the period of marriage, and did not ever mention outside their bedroom.

Thirdly, from all Demelza'a musings, both before and after, I felt she viewed this as a gift that she could give him. I don't sense any thought of mutual engagement (physical or spiritual) but more a bestowment of access to her body. It almost seems maternal, a granting of a wish.

Why does this make a difference?

I suppose, for me, it heightens the difference between the depth of what she has with Ross, and the shallowness of the physical act with Hugh. And it explains somewhat, what other commenters have stated to be a seeming lack of remorse on Demelza's part. I believe that in her mind the time on the beach was not as engaging to her as it was to Hugh. Whenever Demelza muses about the whole situation, it is the emotional attachment that concerns her.

But... (and it is a huge But..) for me this makes the emotional betrayal bigger. For Demelza, the much greater disloyalty was the entry of Hugh into her heart and emotions. I believe the physical act (for her) was less of an issue, than the way Hugh came into her being, and pushed Ross to the outer. I think she was shocked by the betrayal of her own emotions, which she believed were settled on one man only.

All the other issues mentioned below come into play as well (there is no simple act in any of WG's writings). But I do think that this is part of the reason that WG leaves it that Ross never knows for sure. If Ross found out for certain, then the beach part would become central to the story, and therefore diminish the impact of Demelza being emotionally touched by another man.

In summary, for me, the incident on the beach is less of an issue than all the surrounding story, because I believe that it didn't mean that much to Demelza either.



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Hi Vennor,

Neither do I don't think that Demelza suffered from a guilty conscience over her infidelity with HA.  That partially explains why she had no qualms about holding on to his poems and looking grief stricken whenever his name was mentioned, even years after his death.  However I do think she had a guilty conscience and it sprang from the fact that she had failed to live up to her own code of how a wife should behave.  Although she didn't often articulate her views as concretely as Ross, Demelza was as morally centered and had very deep feelings about how people should behave, especially husbands and wives. Trust and loyalty in marriage were as important to her as love. So once, like Ross, she had betrayed these values, I think she felt kind of anchorless.  Her love for HA helped her understand Ross's infatuation for Elizabeth, but it also led her to betray her principles. She said something of this to Verity in Warleggen before Ross's betrayal.

 

 "Having a husband, it seems to me, is a small matter like going to church. Either you trust in something or you do not, If you do not, then there's no benefit in going to church at all, is there? But if you do believe in him, then you've no excuse to be asking, for proofs, all the time."

Of course the same would apply to a wife as well. So Ross's reflection in the Angry Tide, after his return from Parliament, that they had to "start again," helped put them on the road to rebuilding their mutual trust and loyalty. This is a Cinderella story that relates what happened after the marriage. Fortunately, after their many trials and tribulations, did they live happily.

 



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MrsMartin wrote:

Hello Vennor,

I don't believe that Demelza infatuation with Hugh and her ultimate infidelity, had anything to do with revenge but her lack of remorse certainly did. I think that though she had never intended to be unfaithful to Ross, that once she had and to ease her guilty conscience, by allowing herself to believe that she was justified in her behaviour because Ross had strayed first.


I agree that Demelza was not out for revenge when she had the afternoon with HA.  But, neither did she have a guilty conscience about it.  She was not of the "Methody" persuasion of her brothers, father, and stepmother.  So, she wouldn't have to justify her affair with HA to assuage her conscience.  It is just simply that for Demelza, the narrative changed.  Demelza was so grateful to Ross for taking her away from squalor and beatings and marrying her, and she was so in love with him that she would have done anything for him.  Certainly being faithful to him was a given.  This all changed when Ross went to Elizabeth that fateful night in May.  And Valentine would have been a constant reminder of that night (even though neither one of them ever spoke of his true parentage -- even when asked).  Had Ross resisted going to Elizabeth, Demelza would have flirted and had great compassion for Hugh, but would have never gone all the way with him or fallen in love with him.


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Hello Vennor,

I don't believe that Demelza infatuation with Hugh and her ultimate infidelity, had anything to do with revenge but her lack of remorse certainly did. I think that though she had never intended to be unfaithful to Ross, that once she had and to ease her guilty conscience, by allowing herself to believe that she was justified in her behaviour because Ross had strayed first.

Hollyhock wrote:

 Yes, Demelza did have longer with HA--than she'd had with McNeil--to process her feelings.  HA knew how to play the seduction game very well, and he had the leisure to do it. However, although her romance with HA was partly motivated by revenge, in exacting her revenge on Ross, as so often happens, there was an unexpected outcome. She fell in love with HA.  Oh, I believe she still loved Ross, but she was in love with Hugh. That best explains her undisguised feelings, her "divided loyalty," when she spoke to Ross about HA, who had warned her:

 

Hi Hollyhock,

I am not sure that Demelza was ever in love with Hugh, I think she just got caught up in the romance of having someone paying ardent court to her, writing her poetry and that person was a tragic figure that was gravely ill. It was not love though it was just romance. The love that Ross and Demelza share is a deep to the soul kind of love, an everyday living kind of love and neither Elizabeth or Hugh, could ever come close to matching.



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Vennor wrote:

_______________________________________________________________________

After reading all the postings about Demelza and Hugh's tryst on the beach, it struck me that (on Demelza's part) it was ultimately payback for Ross' indiscretion with Elizabeth.  Something jumped out at me from the second read through of Warleggan that only made sense because I had knowledge of the previous read through 10 years before.  At the Bodrugan party, even though Demelza was bent on revenging herself on Ross, she didn't have enough time to process her feelings or be properly wooed and she couldn't force herself to be unfaithful.  She rejects McNeil even though she encouraged him and went to the party specifically for revenge.  When Hugh enters the picture, she is persuaded to accomplish her "getting even" quietly and gently, without even a thought to it.  That is why she doesn't reject Hugh and never regrets it.  The playing field is now even.

__________________________________________________________________________

Yes, Demelza did have longer with HA--than she'd had with McNeil--to process her feelings.  HA knew how to play the seduction game very well, and he had the leisure to do it. However, although her romance with HA was partly motivated by revenge, in exacting her revenge on Ross, as so often happens, there was an unexpected outcome. She fell in love with HA.  Oh, I believe she still loved Ross, but she was in love with Hugh. That best explains her undisguised feelings, her "divided loyalty," when she spoke to Ross about HA, who had warned her:

"There's not really room for two men in a woman's heart, is there?"

But by then it was too late; HA had played his game well and won her heart.

She tells Ross after HA's death:

"I never intended. This crept on me unawares. I never thought - you must know I never thought... I am so sad. For - for all things."

Years later, Demelza tells Clowance when they were discussing Clowance's attraction to Stephen Carrington:

D: "You may go through life only seeing and feeling that electric charge in one man. Or at the most two."

C: "Have you felt it in two?"

D: "I have felt it in two."

She had her revenge but in the process she suffered; I think she grieved for HA for the rest of her life.



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 MrsMartin,

Exactly! Demelza manipulates the situation, yet again, and makes Ross feel guilty for her indiscretions. Instead of Ross, she should have been the one sent to Parliament.  The war with France would have been over in no time. And, what makes it so galling is that Ross has no friendly shoulder to lean on. They all, even Dwight, say it's over because Hugh is dead. What kind of a reason is that for a reconciliation? (It begs the question, what if HA had lived?)

No wonder poor Ross is angry (and goes net fishing in the middle of the night, and gets caught in vellows, and nearly drowns Jud, and gate crashes at Trenwith, well...just saying.)

All things considered, Ross handled the situation like the Knight in shining armor that he is and comes across as the bigger person (no heart palpitations here).

_____________________________________________________________________________

MrsMartin wrote:

I don't remember Demelza suffering from self loathing, I don't remember Demelza feeling any empathy towards Ross for what she had done to him, I don't remember her sorrow.  In fact she gets angry with Ross when he comes back from Parliament, that he is a stranger to her and doesn't seem to comprehend his anger an jealousy. She tells Ross that, her affair of the heart with Hugh is over, that she has made her choice and that there could be no other choice,  not because she loves Ross more or any other reason than that Hugh is dead. I sorry, but I don't see that Demelza does anything to ease Ross' pain or to soothe his jealousy. 

______________________________________________________________________________



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Mrs Gimlett wrote:

I think some of us are trying to over-analyse the Demelza and Hugh thing.  Anyway, Demelza did suffer for what happened, she loathed herself for a long time and must have felt extremely lonely and sore when Ross left almost immediately for Parliament.

That break did them both good though and they were each able to step back and realise how much they meant to each other. 


 I don't remember Demelza suffering from self loathing, I don't remember Demelza feeling any empathy towards Ross for what she had done to him, I don't remember her sorrow.  In fact she gets angry with Ross when he comes back from Parliament, that he is a stranger to her and doesn't seem to comprehend his anger and jealousy. She tells Ross that, her affair of the heart with Hugh is over, that she has made her choice and that there could be no other choice,  not because she loves Ross more or any other reason than that Hugh is dead. I sorry, but I don't see that Demelza does anything to ease Ross' pain or to soothe his jealousy.  

 

 



-- Edited by MrsMartin on Thursday 12th of May 2016 03:06:50 AM

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After reading all the postings about Demelza and Hugh's tryst on the beach, it struck me that (on Demelza's part) it was ultimately payback for Ross' indiscretion with Elizabeth.  Something jumped out at me from the second read through of Warleggan that only made sense because I had knowledge of the previous read through 10 years before.  At the Bodrugan party, even though Demelza was bent on revenging herself on Ross, she didn't have enough time to process her feelings or be properly wooed and she couldn't force herself to be unfaithful.  She rejects McNeil even though she encouraged him and went to the party specifically for revenge.  When Hugh enters the picture, she is persuaded to accomplish her "getting even" quietly and gently, without even a thought to it.  That is why she doesn't reject Hugh and never regrets it.  The playing field is now even.

................................................

Up to that moment there had been a strong element of doubt in her feelings.  The terrible sick hurt within her goaded her on in spite of these very peculiar feelings which were attacking her now, which swept over her, wave after wave.  Hurt pride and all the other things were working hard on breathing space, still a little time to relate one emotion with another, so that there should still be an ultimate freedom of choice, a rejection or an acceptance within her heart.  Had he been a subtler man and given her time, she could have done this.  But he did not give her time, and so the new feelings grew stronger than the old and his compliments slid past unheeded.

................................................

 

 



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Thank you, Ross. I've really enjoyed lurking and decided to plunge in.



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A warm welcome to the Forum Hollyhock hope you enjoy it all....! smile



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Hello Mrs. Gimlet,

Nice to meet you! My name was inspired by the beautiful flowers.

I don't recall that Demelza ever expressed any self-loathing.  Her fear was that Ross would discover that she had committed adultery with HA, and that there would be resulting consequences to their lifestyle.  As I recall, after she makes love with Ross just a couple of days after having sex with Hugh Armitage, she gets out of bed, stands by the window, and reflects:

"It was just a trifle disconcerting that she did not feel very much changed in any way as a result of it [her sexual encounter with HA]. That was not to say that she had spent a happy two days since. At times the discomfort and apprehension she felt might well have been mistaken for bitter remorse for wrong-doing. Unfortunately the remorse was something of which she had to remind herself rather than a sensation welling up naturally from her conscience. The true discomfort grew out of something different. At the moment, what had happened on Tuesday was an event in isolation, unconnected with the past, unattached to the future. But if Ross knew of it, even got to suspect it, then the anonymity of the experience would be shattered, the isolation broken into, and her life with him might be laid waste."

But I think the point is not that she committed adultery, or that she should have felt remorseful about that. The point is that she never felt the need to apologize to Ross for being "unfaithful in spirit," which left so much unresolved. That is the thing that seems to not ring true in a character who is otherwise sensitive, empathetic,  and admirable. 

But Judas, this is the stuff that makes for late-night page turning while sipping port.



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MrsMartin,

I agree that Demelza's passion for Hugh Armitage seemed to level the playing field between her and Ross. Near the end of the Angry Tide, after Elizabeth's death, when Ross is trying to come to grips with his feelings, he says to Demelza:

"Not long ago you lost someone you - loved. It - bites deep.' 'Yes,' she said. 'It bites deep.'"

I'm not sure she could have commiserated with Ross if she had not loved and lost HA.

These characters are so richly drawn that they invite much introspection. What a joy. 



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Welcome to our world, Hollyhock.

Are you named for Demelza's horse or for her favourite flowers?

I think some of us are trying to over-analyse the Demelza and Hugh thing.  Anyway, Demelza did suffer for what happened, she loathed herself for a long time and must have felt extremely lonely and sore when Ross left almost immediately for Parliament.

That break did them both good though and they were each able to step back and realise how much they meant to each other. 

The post about Monk Adderley is off-topic and will probably be put into another thread. 



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Hello Hollyhock and welcome.

It is my belief, that just because Ross had his extramarital encounter first, Demelza feels almost justified in her encounter with Hugh.  In Angry Tide after Ross comes back from London for the first time, Demelza seems to state that this.

'Is this the difference between a woman and a man, Ross? For after all, all my life with you I have had to fight - not a shade but an ideal -Elizabeth. I - have always had to compete.'

'Not for a long time now. But perhaps you're right. What's sauce for the goose...' 

Even to the end of the story, it seems that Demelza continues to hold Ross' night with Elizabeth against him, probably because of Valentine. In Bella Poldark, I'm not sure if it is because she is still grieving for Jeremy and she believes that Ross has replaced him in his heart with Elizabeth's son, or because she is still resentful over his encounter with Elizabeth but whatever the reason is, I feel that Ross' infidelity is held against him more than Demelza's infidelity is held against her and not just by the author, but by the readers as well. 

Although, I will say that I don't think that Demelza would have had any kind of encounter with Hugh, had he not been gravely ill. I also believe that, Demelza's encounter with Hugh helped to balance her relationship Ross, by showing her what it was like to have someone else in her heart other than Ross and for Ross to experience the anger, doubts, the jealousy of having to share his wife's affections.

 



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pint-of-mild wrote:

Monk Adderley is a queer character through and through!  Like you say, Dark Mare, Ross didn't like him from the moment he first met him.  I wonder if this too had something to do with how things panned out?  Did the dislike play a part in Ross's reaction?  If he'd not disliked Adderley so, maybe he would have simply laughed it off than rise to the challenge of a duel.

Or maybe, Ross was starting to have a bit of a mid-life!  The need to recapture his daring youth was given partly as an excuse to Demelza as to why he'd snuck over to Trenwith that night.  There's nothing more daring than fighting a duel!

-- Edited by pint-of-mild on Tuesday 10th of May 2016 03:55:47 PM


 It's interesting that you should say Ross took an instant dislike to him; my thought was Adderley seemed to have taken a dislike to Ross before he even met him -- he had been watching him with Elizabeth from inside Trenwith. It was almost as if Adderley was picking out his next dueling target. 

 

 

 

 



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Hi all. I am loving this Board! Thank you!

MrsMartin, thank you so much for your brave input on the Demelza-Hugh Armitage affair, er, storyline. I felt compelled to weigh in on this topic because it is one of the few subplots in the whole series that I felt was unresolved. It is so unconscionable (and insensitive on her part) that Demelza would not have apologized to Ross for breaking his heart. I agree that if she wanted to remain deceitful about actually having sex (ugh) with the despicable, sluglike Hugh Armitage, that is one thing; but that she would refuse to apologize to Ross for all the heartache and stress that she caused him--with all her flushing, shivering, and trembling--through her emotional involvement with this man is quite another thing.

At the end of The Four Swans, when she is weeping disconsolately over Hugh's death, she says to Ross, "these are not the tears of a penitent...I weep for Hugh- and for myself--and for--and for the whole world." Ross had to then plead with her, "Set some tears aside for me...for I believe I need them." She could not include Ross even in her tears. This was truly heartbreaking.

I too greatly admire Demelza and think she is a wonderful character, but from that point on (and this may be considered blasphemous) I found her manipulative, sneaky, and controlling. Just asking, what wife would go to London (Angry Tide) and let some creepy freak like Monk Adderly fondle her in front of husband, especially if her husband is trying his best to recover from a very recent wifely betrayal.   And, she makes Ross take the blame for that whole dueling episode as well. Incredible.  And shame on Carolyn (whom I absolutely adore) for chastising Ross.  You gotta wonder if in this fictional universe Carolyn ever disapproved of Demelza's betrayal of Ross.  (Later on I was pleased that Ross felt some attraction for Harriet, GW's wife.)

And remember, it was the Machiavellian George Warleggan who sicced his mad dog, Monk, on Ross through his wager with Monk over Demelza's possible seduction. George had realized early on that Demelza was the chink in Ross's armor. Similar to her many suitors (as Ross himself observed), Demelza had only to crook her little finger and Ross came crawling.

All the way to the very end of Bella, in the stage coach back to Cornwall, I kept waiting for Demelza to show some remorse, even if only in an aside to herself, for breaking Ross's heart.  Alas, it never happened.

I also wonder, by the way, if Hugh Armitage had survived, if he would have been a regular at Nampara when Ross was away. Once the jar is open... Frankly, I don't think Demelza would have resisted.

But all of this makes for great reading, and re-reading, and re-reading!  Hey, is there a Poldark version of AA?



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Monk Adderley is a queer character through and through!  Like you say, Dark Mare, Ross didn't like him from the moment he first met him.  I wonder if this too had something to do with how things panned out?  Did the dislike play a part in Ross's reaction?  If he'd not disliked Adderley so, maybe he would have simply laughed it off than rise to the challenge of a duel.

 

Or maybe, Ross was starting to have a bit of a mid-life!  The need to recapture his daring youth was given partly as an excuse to Demelza as to why he'd snuck over to Trenwith that night.  There's nothing more daring than fighting a duel!



-- Edited by pint-of-mild on Tuesday 10th of May 2016 03:55:47 PM

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May I jump into this? There was something about Caroline's explanation of the Adderley duel that always bothered me. Yes, I accepted everything she said about the reason for Demelza's distress and shame (and thought it revealed a greater awareness of the worldview of someone raised in poverty than I would have expected from Caroline) and her theory of Ross' wish to have killed Hugh Armitage, but there was more to it. I just couldn't figure out what it was -- until I stumbled upon what Ross told Demelza after he returned from his stroll over to Trenwith the night George threw the big, splashy party attended by John Robinson, William Pitt's longtime fixer. That was the thing that was nagging at me:

Ross said: "But another man (Monk Adderley) came on us when we had spoken a few words. I've forgotten the name Elizabeth gave him, but he made the back of my hair stand up."

Sounds like foreshadowing. The funny thing is Ross had been talking to Elizabeth in the garden at Trenwith when Adderley came out of the house to see whether Elizabeth was being annoyed by Ross. Adderley was unnecessarily rude to him from the moment they were introduced. Why? I went back several pages and found these lines:

... George Warleggan and Monk Adderley? Elizabeth, pursued with the utmost tigrish courtesy by the young man, wondered for a little. 

... (George's) attitude to her was as possessive as ever but with, she fancied, a new trust; she was no longer followed wherever she went in Truro; and Monk Adderley's feline attentions did not seem to upset him.

Ross seemed to have recognized Adderley as a threat -- if only unconsciously -- long before Demelza set foot in London, and Adderley might have engineered a way to get Ross to face him   in Hyde Park whether Demelza was in London or not. Would Elizabeth have been involved? I can't see how, but Adderley is a loose cannon so who knows?

After Ross described his encounter with Adderley, Demelza took issue with his visit to Trenwith, and Ross offered what could be a little more foreshadowing:

Demelza came across to him. "It's the wrong sort of thing to do, Ross. Oh, I don't mean because of Elizabeth now. I mean because it's in the spirit of enmity, of -- of challenge. You said a few years ago that we had all we wanted. You said -- exactly --  live and let live . . . Is it because I've failed you since then?"

He patted her hand. "Perhaps we've failed each other -- just a little anyway. But don't magnify this, don't blow it up and out of proportion -- it was a single act of -- of unreason, if you like. You have to face the fact -- must have faced it long ago -- that I am not always a reasonable man."

Demelza sighed. She could say no more to this.

 

 



-- Edited by Dark Mare on Tuesday 10th of May 2016 06:34:32 AM

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Hi Pint-of-Mild,

I don't think you came across bluntly and I believe we can discuss this subject without anyone being right or wrong, I am just expressing my opinions, as well. I don't know if Ross and Demelza's marriage would have ended if she had confessed the extent of her relationship with Hugh, Ross is a very fair minded person, that is one of the things I love about him the most. I remember reading a passage in a M.M. Kaye novel regarding love and it was something along the lines of "She knew she didn't love him now, because although what he had done, would have made her angry and hurt,  she would not have been able to stop loving him." Ross would not have stopped loving Demelza, if she had been honest with him and I don't think their marriage would have ended because of her infidelity, that would have been hypocritical of Ross, but it may have stopped him from duelling with Monk Adderley. If Demelza had disclosed the full extent of her involvement with Hugh, instead of leaving it ambiguous, they might have been able to mend their relationship earlier and he might have not reacted to Monk Adderley's antics, the way he did. As I agree it would have been terrible for Ross and Demelza to part, it would have been worse if Ross had been mortally wounded by Monk Adderley or maimed for life. Don't get me wrong, I love Demelza as well but in this one instance, I believe that she owed Ross full disclosure, instead of leaving him floundering with his suspicions.



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Hi again, I'm sorry if I've come across a bit bluntly, it's hard sometimes to express one's meanings through type!  I'm not trying to say that I'm right, it's all just my own humble feelings and opinions from my readings.  We're getting into grounds here which, I think, go much deeper than the books.  We're touching on personal issues and ideas about relationships, I'm sure that eveyone has varying views on how they conduct themselves and how they expect others to.  I can only really comment from my own point of view.

'Unfaithful in spirit' - what does that actually mean?  If Demelza is gulity of that, I believe that Ross is more so.  His infatuation with Elizabeth goes on and on, even, I believe, after she dies.  He tries to use that in his defense to say that his indiscretion was somehow more decent because it went on for so much longer.  To me, that just doesn't add up, I think it's worse actually.  I just think that for her to make any valid apology, she would have to confess all to Ross, which may not be in the best interest for their future together.  I feel that for her to apologise for the hurt she's caused him without admitting all is just a bit hollow.  I agree that D's being dishonest, disloyal and unfaithful.  She's run the risk of throwing everything away, for what?  Pity?  If she told R everything, I feel that they would be forced to have to make a decision about their marriage, which, God forbid, could have ended with them parting.  Who knows?  Would R remain in a marriage where he really knew he'd been cuckolded?  I'm not sure that he would.  Maybe D is cowardly for her actions, but I feel that maybe her keeping him in ignorance possibly saved their marriage. 

D is one of my idols, so, obviously, I'm going to try to stick up for her.  However, I'm always so disappointed in her for her involvement with Hugh, I always feel that she's a stronger person than that. 



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Pint-of-mild,

I am sure that Demelza could apologise for the pain she has caused Ross by her  "unfaithful in spirit", without apologising for the act itself, if her reasoning was that it better that Ross not know that she had committed adultery. Although, I believe that her actions in that respect were dishonest and cowardly.  I feel that Demelza is never condemned by anyone for her involvement with Hugh and that it is Ross that ends up looking like an idiot for his reaction to Monk Adderley.  It is Ross that is chastised by Caroline for his involvement with Monk and Demelza who feels that she has been wronged by it, but it is Demelza who is culpable for Ross' reaction to Monk antics. After Ross encounter with Elizabeth, although it might be an unsatisfactory apology, at least he says he is very sorry for all the pain he has caused Demelza and that she is his true love. I would have more respect for Demelza if she had been honest about what happen with Hugh and then tried to make amends for it. Better that, then to leave Ross believing the worst but never really knowing.



-- Edited by MrsMartin on Friday 6th of May 2016 02:32:31 PM

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Just a couple of points I wanted to make from the previous thread before it moved here...

MrsMartin - Demelza never apologises for her actions - cavalier attitude -

To apologise for them would be to admit them, something that she never does either.  Does Ross ever really know the extent of the involvement?  I don't think he does, he can guess, but does he ever really know?  Sometimes ignorance is bliss.  D would have had to tell him all to apologise for all, is it really worth bringing it all up and having to face the music?  To force themselves to maybe make a decision about their future?  Reading The Four Swans, I feel that R copes with the whole Hugh thing very well, rather maturely actually.  They speak about Hugh quite frankly and openly, R even warns D about her possible actions.  Obviously, everyone has a limit, so R calls a time-out and heads off to London, probably a very sensible thing to do, really.  The wounds are all re-opened in The Angry Tide with the whole Monk Adderley debacle. 

 

Dark Mare - Ross upset at Demelza being unfaithful in spirit -

Attitudes between the sexes were much different then.  Enlightened as Ross is, Demelza was still his wife, his possession, his property.  He can do what he wants, including Elizabeth, and dress it up as something noble.  When he returns from London in The Angry Tide, he tells Demelza of the beautiful women of London and how he invited them to his room on a number of occasions, three, I think.  I've often wondered if this is true or if he's bluffing.  Demelza takes it quite well, as though it's his right to do so, if he chooses.  I feel that Ross and Elizabeth, and Ross in London, and Demelza and Hugh are all symptomatic of the context.

In the later books, Valentine is a very present reminder of Ross and Elizabeth's indiscretion.  To the point where R and D are uncomfortable about Valentine and Clowance.  Poor Demelza, constantly seeing a walking, talking symbol of unfaithfulness. 

By the way, I don't condone either of them for their actions, but that's life.  It keeps us turning the pages!

 



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Then again, McNeil didn't tell her he was dying before he put the moves on her. 

 

The interesting thing is the morning on the beach granted a wish that Demelza earlier had discussed with Ross, but it played out not the way she wanted it to but the way Ross predicted it would. (Be careful what you wish for ...) 

 

"The Four Swans," Page 230

 

"Oh, Ross, I'm so sad."

"For him?" 

"Well, I wish I were two people." 

"Tell me." 

"One, your loving wife, that I always wish to be and always shall be. And mother. Content, content, content . . . But for a day . . ."

There was a long silence. 

"For a day you'd like to be his lover."

"No. Not that. But I'd like to be another person, not Demelza Poldark, but someone new, who could respond to him and make him happy, just for a day . . . Someone who could laugh with him, talk with him, flirt with him maybe, go off with him, ride, swim, talk, without feeling I was being disloyal to the man I really and truly and absolutely love."

"And d'you think he'd be satisfied with that?"

She moved her head. 

"I don't know. I suppose not."

"I suppose not neither. Are you sure you would?"

"Oh, yes!"

The candle had a thief in it, and the smoke it was sending up was as dark as from a mine chimney. But neither moved to snuff it.

Ross said: "It is not a unique occurrence." 

"What's not?" 

"What you feel. How you feel. It occurs in life. Especially among those who have loved early and have loved long."

"Why among those?" 

"Because others have supped at different tables first. And some others do not consider that loyalty and love must always go together. And then" 

"But I do not want to be disloyal! I do not want to love elsewhere! That's not it at all. I want to give another man some sort of happiness, some of my happiness perhaps, and I cannot and it hurts . . ." 

"Peace, my love. It hurts me too."

"Does it, Ross? I'm that sorry."

"Well, it's the first time I have ever seen you look at another man the way you look at me."



-- Edited by Dark Mare on Sunday 4th of December 2016 06:49:48 AM

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That was not to say that she had spent a happy two days since. At times the discomfort and apprehension she felt might well have been mistaken for bitter remorse for wrong-doing. Unfortunately the remorse was something of which she had to remind herself rather than a sensation welling up naturally from her conscience. The true discomfort grew out of something different. At the moment, what had happened on Tuesday was an event in isolation, unconnected with the past, unattached to the future. But if Ross knew of it, even got to suspect it, then the anonymity of the experience would be shattered, the isolation broken into, and her life with him might be laid waste

It was not an agreeable thought, and, standing at the window with little shivers going through her body in the warm night, she did not much like herself. It seemed to her that if she had committed adultery it was for the wrong reasons, and if she was sorry she had committed it, it was again for the wrong reasons.

 I agree that Hugh's pursuit it quite despicable but it takes two to tango. Demelza allowed Hugh to make love to her, he didn't force her and it didn't happen so quickly that she couldn't have stopped it. She managed to stop Captain McNeil but she chose not to stop Hugh. I agree that Hugh knew that Demelza loved Ross, that he betrayed his friend, the man who saved his life, but it is Demelza, that owed Ross her faithfulness and loyalty, not Hugh.  After Hugh dies Demelza says, that her tears are not tears of penitence and she doesn't ever seem to show any real penitence for what she had done.



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I am not sure Demelza was at all guilt free.  She berated herself for letting it happen because she knew that with the act  the absolute trust she and Ross held in each other would be destroyed.  Hugh was unreasonable, despicable and betrayed his friend - the person who had saved his life (most probably) and betrayed Demelza too.  He knew she loved Ross, was happy in her marriage and sorry for him; alright she was attracted to Hugh, but there is no doubt in my mind that until they fell out of the boat onto that warm seductive sand, there was nothing in her mind but concern for Hugh and his failing eyesight.  But something happened and so quickly she couldn't stop it. 

She really wasn't proud of her 'adventure' and suffered for many months all kinds of agonies.  I wonder when she finally destroyed those letters?

I have often thought when reading TFS how would I have reacted to Hugh's attentions. (in the 18th century)



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It was not quite credible. Some years ago when Ross had gone to Elizabeth, had left her, and gone off to Elizabeth, she had herself ridden alone too a ball at, the Bodrugans determined to revenge herself in the only way open to her, and had thrown herself at a Scottish army officer called Malcolm McNeil. But when it came to the point, when she found herself alone in her room with a strange man who was trying affectionately to undress her, she had repelled him, actually with force, had bitten him like the brat she was and had made her escape. Whatever Ross did, she had found, almost to her own fury, that she was Ross's woman and wanted - indeed could accept no other man. Then when the motive was there, goading her on, with the absolute certain knowledge of Ross's unfaithfulness burning into her soul, she had been unable to be unfaithful in return.

Now, with no more than a suspicion that Ross was again meeting Elizabeth, on the quiet, she had allowed herself to slip gently into the infidelity she had thought impossible in herself.

But to be honest she could not allow herself even the luxury of blaming her lapse on Jud's tale-telling, on Ross's secret meetings. It had of course been in the back of her mind all these months, a little corrosive eating away at her normal contentment; and on the soft sand beside the Seal Hole, Cave, with the cliffs towering and a man kneeling in the sand watching her, the knowledge had come suddenly to the forefront and on the instant eroded her will. But it could only have done that if the impulses were already so strong within her that they seized on any excuse to have their way. It was an excuse, she knew that with certainty. A good one or a bad one, who knew? But an excuse for what was inexcusable.

 

There is no excuse for the inexcusable. 

Demelza's behaviour was inexcusable. I am not a believer in two wrongs making a right or that past indiscretions of ones spouse, gives one the right to be indiscreet as well. I have tried to find some kind of reason for Demelza's encounter with Hugh and I have been unable to do so. I also find her lack of remorse for the pain that she has inflicted on Ross, very distressing, I expected better of her.

 

 



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Date: Apr 19 12:40 PM, 2016
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New topic opened, refer previous postings....

http://poldark.activeboard.com/t42608779/hugh-armitage/?page=2

 



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"Perfection is a full stop .... Ever the climbing but never the attaining Of the mountain top." W.G.

 

 

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