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Post Info TOPIC: Demelza & Hugh Armitage


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Date: Feb 18 5:09 PM, 2017
RE: Demelza & Hugh Armitage
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Fijane-I absolutely agree. I think it is the loss of the ideal, the fact that both are forced to see these frailties in each other, that so devastates each of them. Their thoughts and feelings exactly echo each other after each incident.

When Ross goes to Elizabeth, we share Demelza's abject misery.

"Demelza's pride had been in him more than in herself. She had believed herself better than other women because a man like Ross had, married her. In his visit to Elizabeth last night he had not only let himself down, he had let her down. It was a joint betrayal, something which destroyed the whole basis of her life."

Then, after the HA affair, Ross discusses his feelings with Caroline more openly than he ever has with anyone as he tries to explain his desolation. 

"It was not so much her I blamed as - as something in humanity. You must not laugh at me for sounding silly and pompous....When I first found out about Demelza it was as if I had lost some belief - some faith in human character... It was like finding an absolute flawed."

I think WG so accurately captured what many married couples experience in similar circumstances. 



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Date: Feb 17 10:44 PM, 2017
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Mrs Gimlett wrote:
Hollyhock wrote:
I think Ross best recognized the symptoms the night of Hugh's going away party. Hugh was returning to the navy and Demelza was very despondent. Ross said to her:

"'It's not a unique occurrence.'  'What's not?' 'What you feel. How you feel: It occurs in life. Especially among those who have loved early and have loved long.'Why among those?' 'Because others have supped at different tables first. And some others do not consider that loyalty and love must always go together. And then..' 'But I do not want to be disloyal! I do not want to love elsewhere! That's not it at all. I want to give another man some sort of happiness - some of my happiness perhaps - and I cannot - and it hurts.' 'Peace, my love. It hurts me too.' 'Does it, Ross? I'm that sorry.' 'Well, it's the first time I have ever seen you look at another man the way you look at me.'" Great line.

Although the adultery was the most emblematic aspect of the affair, I don't think it was the worst. As Ross said, it was the fact that she was "unfaithful in spirit, her thoughts, her emotions, her heart, deeply engaged with another man," that was the worst of the infidelity.

I agree this sums up what Ross is dealing with.  Of course, he doesn't consider that he put Demelza through the same mill - he somehow thinks of that as an isolated incident, a cathartic event even.  He probably thinks she wouldn't behave in the same way, that's why he is so conflicted.

 


I think you have touched on a parallel that is very important in this situation. When Ross went to Elizabeth, Demelza is hugely affected by the fact that she had hero-worshipped Ross, and always thought his behaviour would be above everyone else's.

Now we see the tables turned, because over the years Ross has come to view Demelza as more moral than most of his own class (and even himself). He has put her virtue and honesty on a pedestal.

For this reason, he doesn't recognise the threat posed by Hugh early enough, because for a long time he rests secure in his view of Demelza. Then when he comes to suspect that things have progressed beyond what he considers acceptable, it is too late to fight (figuratively) Hugh. I don't think Ross sees Demelza's feet of clay quite as clearly as this, but he is certainly affected by his discovery of them. And as with the earlier incident, it is even harder to take because of the loss of the ideal.



-- Edited by Fijane on Friday 17th of February 2017 10:44:57 PM

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Thank you Mrs Gimlett for your very reasoned response. I will certainly keep these points in mind on my next big read. I absolutely agree that WG left much to each reader's imagination and interpretation. I think it is these types of discussions that enrich the reading experience and makes us want to read the books over and over. Well, all this analyzing makes me want to run down to my local university and take a literature course just so I can write a paper on the Poldark saga. 

As to the question:

Would there have been the same outcome if Demelza had not heard the rumour about Ross and Elizabeth?

I think the outcome would have been the same because WG wanted to level the playing field between the couple. Otherwise I think Demelza might have appeared as too perfect a wife to Ross' flawed character. After May 9th people were eager send him to the stockade. I think Hugh Armitage was introduced to re-balance the relationship. 

 



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 Ross said it best. There's not room in a woman's heart for two men.

 

I don't know.  I think it can happen.

 

 

And I don't think that HA did love D. Much of his boyish passion resulted from the fear that he was going blind and suspected that his illness was fatal. Demelza offered a convenient, sympathetic breast to 'cry' on, and so became his final, grasping fantasy. (I sometimes wonder if HA initially went after Demelza because he resented the fact that Ross and his ragtag civilian crew had rescued him, a naval officer, and he immaturely wanted to humiliate Ross. (But that's a speculation for another thread.

 

I think it is possible that Hugh did love Demelza.  I think many of the saga's fans want to view  him as some amoral scoundrel who wanted to use Demelza as some notch on his belt.  It is probably hard for many to view participants in an adulterous affair capable of loving their partner "in crime" so to speak.  But love and romance can be a lot more complicated than many want to believe.



-- Edited by LJones41 on Thursday 16th of February 2017 08:51:18 PM

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Hollyhock wrote:

Thank you Mrs Gimlett for giving me a lot to think about. You've lived with these books longer than me so your insight is much appreciated. (Sometimes I wish I'd never immersed myself in the things because they can be so frustrating, but they are such lovely reads!) 

First, I too think Hugh was despicable for going after the wife of the man who saved his life. I think that alone would have turned most women off. As a reader invested in R&D, I find her attraction to Hugh deeply disappointing, distasteful even, but it is reflective of life. Decent women sometimes do distasteful things.

I think the reason Demelza is attracted to Hugh is because he doesn't behave like the other men who have angled after her.  Those she knew how to deal with, and they were not the type she would be attracted to anyway.  But Hugh appears and is gentle; a poet, which intrigues her; and he behaves outwardly like a gentleman.  She is fascinated by him and as she says herself, is flattered by his attentions, but she also says, that she would like to be someone else, in a position to give him some happiness.  She is not interested in adultery, just sad that he seems so melancholy.

Do I think Demelza was not happy in her marriage?  

I think before she met HA she was happy, or at least content. She'd pretty much gotten what she wanted. Ross had given up his preoccupation with Elizabeth. The children were healthy and Grace was making them wealthy. There were no more stresses in her life. I hate to say it but maybe contentment led to boredom. In any event, after meeting Hugh, I think her feelings changed. Otherwise, I don't think he could have so easily uprooted her.

Sorry, but I don't think Demelza would EVER be bored!  True things were going well for them, but she and Ross were back to the relationship they had when first married.  She says several times how happy she is, how all she wants is to be Ross' wife and no other.  She enjoys the companionship of Hugh, but what he says bothers her because a) she knows most of it is untrue and b) he shouldn't be talking to her in that way.

 I think Ross best recognized the symptoms the night of Hugh's going away party. Hugh was returning to the navy and Demelza was very despondent. Ross said to her:

"'It's not a unique occurrence.'  'What's not?' 'What you feel. How you feel: It occurs in life. Especially among those who have loved early and have loved long.'Why among those?' 'Because others have supped at different tables first. And some others do not consider that loyalty and love must always go together. And then..' 'But I do not want to be disloyal! I do not want to love elsewhere! That's not it at all. I want to give another man some sort of happiness - some of my happiness perhaps - and I cannot - and it hurts.' 'Peace, my love. It hurts me too.' 'Does it, Ross? I'm that sorry.' 'Well, it's the first time I have ever seen you look at another man the way you look at me.'" Great line.

Although the adultery was the most emblematic aspect of the affair, I don't think it was the worst. As Ross said, it was the fact that she was "unfaithful in spirit, her thoughts, her emotions, her heart, deeply engaged with another man," that was the worst of the infidelity.

I agree this sums up what Ross is dealing with.  Of course, he doesn't consider that he put Demelza through the same mill - he somehow thinks of that as an isolated incident, a cathartic event even.  He probably thinks she wouldn't behave in the same way, that's why he is so conflicted.

Earlier I suggested that, given the opportunity, Demelza might again succumb to Hugh's amorous caresses. You will recall that intense conversation she had with Ross when she is scheming to get him to take her to see Hugh after he sends a message that he is ill. Demelza is anxious for Hugh and Ross, put off by her obvious involvement, finally tells her to go with Dwight and Carolyn. Demelza says:

"'Thank you, Ross. I shall be - be well chaperoned. Caroline is not of a mind to let me stray.'"  Ross replies, 'Be not of a mind yourself.'"

Why would she even say that? I think it shows her erotic preoccupation. So, it's that and similar statements that make me wonder if Demelza would have let Hugh make love to her again if given the opportunity. 

I don't understand why that line of dialogue is there, either.  It is completely out of keeping for her to even think it, never mind say it.  However, as I read it, Demelza never schemed to see Hugh.  If Ross had said not to go, she would, I think have been relieved, but their meetings were never instigated by her, neither did she wheedle to get an invitation. 

So, let me ask you Mrs Gimlett. Why do you not think that Demelza was in love with Hugh? I'd value your perspective. She herself says she loves him and is always scheming to see him. She seems to get deep pleasure from her sneaky reads of his poems.  As she says, when she and her children are boating, she is often overcome with memories of her seal cove adventure with Hugh.  

As above, I do not think Demelza was scheming at all.  I just think she was infatuated by him because he was so different from anything she had known before.  She may have loved him as a friend, but not as a lover.  Naturally, she was fascinated by his poems.  Who wouldn't be?  I was always hoping she would consign them to the fire, but again, if someone has gone to the trouble of writing them, it's hard to throw them away.  Yes...being overcome with memories of Hugh may mean guilty conscience rather than wonderful thoughts.  Hugh was never the centre of her life as Ross always was.  She felt sorry for him and had great compassion, but not true love.

I believe that Demelza did want to share some of her happiness with Hugh, but he pushed and pushed her into an almost impossible position on that fateful day (sorry unfortunate turn of phrase!).  {That is one of his most despicable moments in my view} If only she had just got up and re-floated the boat...but in a sense, just like Ross, theirs was an event which happened in isolation too, almost a suspension of real life.  I don't like her for doing it any more than she likes herself afterwards.  It's interesting that WG writes both adulterous events as though they can be lifted out of their lives and separated from normal living.

I agree with Ross' assessment near the end of TFS:

"Together they had had everything and she had flung it all away. Almost without a thought to what she was spoiling and soiling for ever. Demelza, whom he had dragged up and loved and worked for devotedly: a man had come and smiled at her and held her hand and she had weakly, sentimentally and wantonly fallen in love. Almost without a token resistance. From the moment Hugh Armitage set eyes on her she had been ready to melt into his arms. And had made no secret of the fact, even to Ross. 'Ross,' she had more or less said, 'this beautiful young man is after me and I like it. I can't help it. I'm going to give myself to; him. A pity about our home, our children, our happiness, our love, our trust. Such a pity. A shame. Too bad. Goodbye.'"

And why, if that was not the case, did she never deny it? I was waiting until the end of TAT for her to, if not show some remorse, at least reassure Ross that he meant more to her than Hugh. 

Of course Ross' anger and disappointment is raw when he's thinking all that (entirely justifiable thoughts though).  Does he at that point blame himself for not stepping in to stop it?  No, he's feeling sorry for himself, unusually.  But life is all about what ifs..usually when a remedy is too late.

I believe she did explain to Ross that she didn't want to be unfaithful, that she loved only him; although that was before the seal viewing.  However, the more one tries to deny something, the more importance it assumes and perhaps that is why she didn't continue down that route.

At the end of TAT, When Ross is reflecting on their future together, he tells her about his visit to Trenwith. 

'What I have seen last night - makes me sick at heart -sick for all the charm and beauty that is lost - in Elizabeth. But most of all it makes me afraid.' 'Afraid, Ross? What of? ' 'Of losing you, I suppose.' 'I don't mean to another man - though that was bad enough. I mean just of losing you physically, as a person, as a companion, as a human presence being beside me and with me all my life.'

Why, did she not jump in as say, "you never lost me?" if that was not the case?

Perhaps she didn't rise to the bait at that point, because she recognised that Ross was in torment of a different kind.  He was trying to come to terms with Elizabeth's death and it was inappropriate for her to change his thought process.  He didn't lose her anyway.  She had no plans to be anything other than his wife; it was Ross who suggested she left at the end of TFS.  She was shocked by it.

I admit, though I'm fond of most of the characters, it is Ross that I love so my bias is always going to lay in his direction. So, I might be overlooking obvious clues to Demelza's state of mind.  But, I believe that while HA was alive, Demelza loved Ross but was in love with Hugh. Ross said it best. There's not room in a woman's heart for two men.

Yes, Ross said it and Demelza agreed with him.  That is why I think she loved only Ross, but felt a great attraction for Hugh.  Perhaps in the way that some people have a husband, but feel a great attraction to Ross!

Oh, by the way Mrs G., in her visit with Caroline the night of Hugh's death, do you think Demelza, in her grief, confessed all?

No, I think she kept the little cove incident very much to herself, for ever.  Caroline knew Hugh was champing at the bit for Demelza, but I don't think she ever knew exactly what went on, other than the obvious - that Demelza's feelings were stirred and she was desperately sad he had died.

In a way, both Ross and Demelza acted out of character over Hugh Armitage.  Ross, with any other man, would have left him in no doubt about his feelings for a seducer.  Yet he let the flirtation happen, trusting, it seems, that Demelza would be strong enough to resist.

Maybe Demelza herself was surprised that Ross made no move against the friendship. 

Perhaps in the end it strengthened their bonds as they realised how much each had to lose.  Before,  Ross had perhaps taken for granted Demelza's complete loyalty and trust, but he became confused because he never actually knew if they had been lovers, only that her thoughts were straying from him whilst Hugh lay dying.  That they were able to discuss it at the end of the book was progress for them.  A tear-jerking part for the reader.

Mrs G

Looking at that, I am not sure I have answered your questions!  The beauty of WGs writing is that he does leave much for the reader to imagine and fill in between the lines.  So in the end it is like viewing colours - we each see a slightly different thing.

 

 



-- Edited by Hollyhock on Wednesday 15th of February 2017 06:24:18 PM


 



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Thank you Mrs Gimlett for giving me a lot to think about. You've lived with these books longer than me so your insight is much appreciated. (Sometimes I wish I'd never immersed myself in the things because they can be so frustrating, but they are such lovely reads!) 

First, I too think Hugh was despicable for going after the wife of the man who saved his life. I think that alone would have turned most women off. As a reader invested in R&D, I find her attraction to Hugh deeply disappointing, distasteful even, but it is reflective of life. Decent women sometimes do distasteful things.

Do I think Demelza was not happy in her marriage?  

I think before she met HA she was happy, or at least content. She'd pretty much gotten what she wanted. Ross had given up his preoccupation with Elizabeth. The children were healthy and Grace was making them wealthy. There were no more stresses in her life. I hate to say it but maybe contentment led to boredom. In any event, after meeting Hugh, I think her feelings changed. Otherwise, I don't think he could have so easily uprooted her.

 I think Ross best recognized the symptoms the night of Hugh's going away party. Hugh was returning to the navy and Demelza was very despondent. Ross said to her:

"'It's not a unique occurrence.'  'What's not?' 'What you feel. How you feel: It occurs in life. Especially among those who have loved early and have loved long.'Why among those?' 'Because others have supped at different tables first. And some others do not consider that loyalty and love must always go together. And then..' 'But I do not want to be disloyal! I do not want to love elsewhere! That's not it at all. I want to give another man some sort of happiness - some of my happiness perhaps - and I cannot - and it hurts.' 'Peace, my love. It hurts me too.' 'Does it, Ross? I'm that sorry.' 'Well, it's the first time I have ever seen you look at another man the way you look at me.'"

Although the adultery was the most emblematic aspect of the affair, I don't think it was the worst. As Ross said, it was the fact that she was "unfaithful in spirit, her thoughts, her emotions, her heart, deeply engaged with another man," that was the worst of the infidelity.

Earlier I suggested that, given the opportunity, Demelza might again succumb to Hugh's amorous caresses. You will recall that intense conversation she had with Ross when she is scheming to get him to take her to see Hugh after he sends a message that he is ill. Demelza is anxious for Hugh and Ross, put off by her obvious involvement, finally tells her to go with Dwight and Carolyn. Demelza says:

"'Thank you, Ross. I shall be - be well chaperoned. Caroline is not of a mind to let me stray.'"  Ross replies, 'Be not of a mind yourself.'"

Why would she even say that? I think it shows her erotic preoccupation. So, it's that and similar statements that make me wonder if Demelza would have let Hugh make love to her again if given the opportunity.   

So, let me ask you Mrs Gimlett. Why do you not think that Demelza was in love with Hugh? I'd value your perspective. She herself says she loves him and is always scheming to see him. She seems to get deep pleasure from her sneaky reads of his poems.  As she says, when she and her children are boating, she is often overcome with memories of her seal cove adventure with Hugh.  

I agree with Ross' assessment near the end of TFS:

"Together they had had everything and she had flung it all away. Almost without a thought to what she was spoiling and soiling for ever. Demelza, whom he had dragged up and loved and worked for devotedly: a man had come and smiled at her and held her hand and she had weakly, sentimentally and wantonly fallen in love. Almost without a token resistance. From the moment Hugh Armitage set eyes on her she had been ready to melt into his arms. And had made no secret of the fact, even to Ross. 'Ross,' she had more or less said, 'this beautiful young man is after me and I like it. I can't help it. I'm going to give myself to; him. A pity about our home, our children, our happiness, our love, our trust. Such a pity. A shame. Too bad. Goodbye.'"

And why, if that was not the case, did she never deny it? I was waiting until the end of TAT for her to, if not show some remorse, at least reassure Ross that he meant more to her than Hugh. 

At the end of TAT, When Ross is reflecting on their future together, he tells her about his visit to Trenwith. 

'What I have seen last night - makes me sick at heart -sick for all the charm and beauty that is lost - in Elizabeth. But most of all it makes me afraid.' 'Afraid, Ross? What of? ' 'Of losing you, I suppose.' 'I don't mean to another man - though that was bad enough. I mean just of losing you physically, as a person, as a companion, as a human presence being beside me and with me all my life.'

Why, did she not jump in as say, "you never lost me?" if that was not the case?

I admit, though I'm fond of most of the characters, it is Ross that I love so my bias is always going to lay in his direction. So, I might be overlooking obvious clues to Demelza's state of mind.  But, I believe that while HA was alive, Demelza loved Ross but was in love with Hugh. Ross said it best. There's not room in a woman's heart for two men.

Oh, by the way Mrs G., in her visit with Caroline the night of Hugh's death, do you think Demelza, in her grief, confessed all?

 

 



-- Edited by Hollyhock on Wednesday 15th of February 2017 06:24:18 PM

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Hollyhock wrote:

Stella wrote:

I wonder if you think there is a link between Demelza's behaviour and Ross' behaviour with Elizabeth.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you Stella. I appreciate your consideration. Do you mean that Demelza was reacting against what she thought was Ross' renewed interest in Elizabeth? That came into play later, but was not the case initially. She was sexually attracted to Hugh from the moment she set eyes on him at Tehidy. She even told Ross that she was drawn to him. When Hugh brings her the tree from America, Ross finds them alone together and Demelza is uncustomarily flushed and flustered. After Hugh leaves, Ross asks her: "'Does he touch you, my love?' She half glanced: up at him, with a glint of embarrassment. 'Yes.' 'Deeply?'  'A little'... He put his arm round her shoulders, and quickly she leaned against him. 'I see,' he commented 'A tree in need of support' 'Just a small matter shaken,' she said."

Ok, that whole conversation is strange but shows two things: (1) Ross is the most understanding of husbands (or needs to stop breathing mine air); and (2) Demelza had already fallen hard for HA.

She herself admits that even Jud's later tale-telling about seeing Ross and Elizabeth together wasn't the deciding factor in her surrender to HA. She said she surrendered out of "pity, love and passion."  


 I am obliged to you, Hollyhock, for reminding me of the above exchange between Ross and Demelza. There seems to be so much - so many little things that together show us the truth of Demelza's feelings for HA but they are scattered about and I find it impossible to keep them all in my head. The answer is to keep reading TFS over and over. I shall certainly re-visit those parts of the book that make up the story of Demelza and Hugh.

I agree that Ross was the most understanding of husbands in this respect although in the end he left Demelza for some time to go to London, in part because he was badly affected by Demelza's infidelity. I recall that Demelza made some effort to control her feelings for Hugh but he wouldn't let her go. I often wonder if Demelza would have found the strength to resist HA's attentions if Ross had not betrayed her with Elizabeth on the 9th May. Being betrayed by a spouse brings about changes in a person although my recollection from The Black Moon is that Ross and Demelza do heal their marriage.



-- Edited by Stella Poldark on Tuesday 14th of February 2017 08:26:50 PM

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Stella wrote:

I wonder if you think there is a link between Demelza's behaviour and Ross' behaviour with Elizabeth.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you Stella. I appreciate your consideration. Do you mean that Demelza was reacting against what she thought was Ross' renewed interest in Elizabeth? That came into play later, but was not the case initially. She was sexually attracted to Hugh from the moment she set eyes on him at Tehidy. She even told Ross that she was drawn to him. When Hugh brings her the tree from America, Ross finds them alone together and Demelza is uncustomarily flushed and flustered. After Hugh leaves, Ross asks her: "'Does he touch you, my love?' She half glanced: up at him, with a glint of embarrassment. 'Yes.' 'Deeply?'  'A little'... He put his arm round her shoulders, and quickly she leaned against him. 'I see,' he commented 'A tree in need of support' 'Just a small matter shaken,' she said."

Ok, that whole conversation is strange but shows two things: (1) Ross is the most understanding of husbands (or needs to stop breathing mine air); and (2) Demelza had already fallen hard for HA.

She herself admits that even Jud's later tale-telling about seeing Ross and Elizabeth together wasn't the deciding factor in her surrender to HA. She said she surrendered out of "pity, love and passion."  



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SusanneMcCarthy wrote:
Mrs Gimlett wrote:

I suppose the question should be posed:-

Would there have been the same outcome if Demelza had not heard the rumour about Ross and Elizabeth?


 Ah, therein lies the heart of the matter. I certainly think it was a strong factor, as I have said below - not for revenge, but it had unsettled her. 

I never quite understood why Ross had kissed Elizabeth at that meeting. 


 Susanne - I have assumed it was part guilt that Elizabeth had problems in her marriage to George because of the matters relating to Valentine. I think it was also that he never stopped feeling affection for Elizabeth though I do not understand why after he was able to see how manipulative she was.



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Mrs Gimlett wrote:

I suppose the question should be posed:-

Would there have been the same outcome if Demelza had not heard the rumour about Ross and Elizabeth?


 Ah, therein lies the heart of the matter. I certainly think it was a strong factor, as I have said below - not for revenge, but it had unsettled her. 

I never quite understood why Ross had kissed Elizabeth at that meeting. 



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I suppose the question should be posed:-

Would there have been the same outcome if Demelza had not heard the rumour about Ross and Elizabeth?



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Interesting what you say, Hollyhock.

I am not one who thinks Demelza can do no wrong, but I cannot lay the blame entirely on her for that day- rather more on Hugh.  I fancy that Hugh saw his chance when they ran onto the sand to empty the boat of water.  He began working on her, talking about love and suggesting he was despicable for asking her to make love.  Demelza's response then should really have been, yes he was wrong to suggest it.  But she was feeling sorry for him and worried about his sight.  So instead of being her usual sensible self, she prevaricated and let him carry on telling her how wonderful love was etc, which had the effect of arousing her.   She questions him about loyalty and trust, but he cannot answer her.

Demelza had several chances to ward him off,  the last one when he asked to just kiss her.  He knew that would win her over - he'd seen the signs.  Hugh may have been young in years, though I believe he was in his early 20s, but he had been in the navy for years, so not inexperienced or naïve.

A  decent gentleman would have got the message long before, when they first met.  Demelza told him she was happily married, as you say, Hollyhock; although I am not sure why you italicised the word 'claimed'.  Do you think she was not happy?

I agree too that Hugh did not love Demelza; he was infatuated with her, maybe because she was natural and unassuming (rare in young women then).  Likewise, I don't think Demelza loved Hugh in 'that' way.  She liked him, he flattered her and was different from other men she had encountered, but I think her liking became compassion that day.

As I have said before and I know others disagree, but I do believe Demelza agonised over what happened, even though when she wakes in the night she doesn't seem that remorseful.  I think she couldn't understand why she didn't feel awful about it - she perhaps expected to feel very wicked and sinful.  It doesn't mean she wasn't suffering terrible guilt. I don't think the 'likely to happen again' bit is significant.  For my money, I  bet she would make sure it never happened again.  Once was enough.

 



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Hollyhock wrote:

For many, Demelza can do no wrong even when she does wrong. Demelza is a delightfully refreshing character with many charming traits. But, like everyone, she is flawed. Ross is castigated as insensitive and the worst of husbands when he does anything that is perceived as hurtful to Demelza. However, Demelza's transgressions are attributed to naivete and a rough childhood. Specifically, compared to Ross' discrete pining for Elizabeth, Demelza openly swoons and moons over HA and fantasizes about running off and sleeping with him. I definitely question her sensitivity and maturity, but do not consider her naive or innocent. Demelza is an older married woman who falls in love and lust with the new young man in the neighborhood. There's no rationalizing it or excusing it. She committed adultery, jeopardized her life with her children and husband, and felt no remorse for her actions. If Demelza's love for HA can be understood, then surely so must Ross' be for Elizabeth. What is true for the goose must be equally true for the gander.

I don't think Hugh Armitage treated Demelza like a lady. Had that been the case, like a gentleman, he would have backed off when she claimed to be happily married.  On the contrary, HA treated her like Sir Hugh, the Comte de Maresi, and her other would be paramours. The difference was in their approaches. While her other suitors were frank and direct, HA was subtle and urbane. But they all had the same object in mind, to bed her. Out of all her admirers, I think Captain McNeil showed her the most respect because he did not make a move on Demelza until she decided to seduce him.  However, in marrying her, encouraging her, and making her mistress of his estate, Ross is the man who best treated Demelza like a lady and demanded that everyone else do so.  Sadly, on that sandy beach with HA, she behaved like anything but a lady.

And I don't think that HA did love D. Much of his boyish passion resulted from the fear that he was going blind and suspected that his illness was fatal. Demelza offered a convenient, sympathetic breast to 'cry' on, and so became his final, grasping fantasy. (I sometimes wonder if HA initially went after Demelza because he resented the fact that Ross and his ragtag civilian crew had rescued him, a naval officer, and he immaturely wanted to humiliate Ross. (But that's a speculation for another thread.)

I would also argue that Ross was a romantic husband. He didn't sit around writing poetry all day, wasn't his temperament and he had to make a living. But he was always doing and saying little sweet, uncontrived, unexpected things. Like, about the scar on Demelza's knee: "Blemishes on the beauty of a person one loves are like grace notes adding, something to, a piece of music."   Better than any of HA's fluff.

 Finally, I wonder if HA had lived, what would have been the resolution of that triangle. (Suspenseful music...)

Would our heroine Demelza have run off with her lover, HA?  During her infamous reflection about her sandy romp with HA, the text states:

"She did not see it as a happening that was likely to recur."

It's that likely that WG threw in there that makes me wonder. If she were definitely decided, why not say, "she would make sure it never happened again."

So, I wonder if, like some randy dog, HA started making frequent visits to Nampara when Ross was away, would Demelza be likely to find excuses to show him, instead of the wonders of Seal Hole, the wonders of the rarely used Nampara cellar?  confused.gif

 

 


 Hollyhock - I find your reply thought-provoking so thank you. I wonder if you think there is a link between Demelza's behaviour and Ross' behaviour with Elizabeth.



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For many, Demelza can do no wrong even when she does wrong. Demelza is a delightfully refreshing character with many charming traits. But, like everyone, she is flawed. Ross is castigated as insensitive and the worst of husbands when he does anything that is perceived as hurtful to Demelza. However, Demelza's transgressions are attributed to naivete and a rough childhood. Specifically, compared to Ross' discrete pining for Elizabeth, Demelza openly swoons and moons over HA and fantasizes about running off and sleeping with him. I definitely question her sensitivity and maturity, but do not consider her naive or innocent. Demelza is an older married woman who falls in love and lust with the new young man in the neighborhood. There's no rationalizing it or excusing it. She committed adultery, jeopardized her life with her children and husband, and felt no remorse for her actions. If Demelza's love for HA can be understood, then surely so must Ross' be for Elizabeth. What is true for the goose must be equally true for the gander.

I don't think Hugh Armitage treated Demelza like a lady. Had that been the case, like a gentleman, he would have backed off when she claimed to be happily married.  On the contrary, HA treated her like Sir Hugh, the Comte de Maresi, and her other would be paramours. The difference was in their approaches. While her other suitors were frank and direct, HA was subtle and urbane. But they all had the same object in mind, to bed her. Out of all her admirers, I think Captain McNeil showed her the most respect because he did not make a move on Demelza until she decided to seduce him.  However, in marrying her, encouraging her, and making her mistress of his estate, Ross is the man who best treated Demelza like a lady and demanded that everyone else do so.  Sadly, on that sandy beach with HA, she behaved like anything but a lady.

And I don't think that HA did love D. Much of his boyish passion resulted from the fear that he was going blind and suspected that his illness was fatal. Demelza offered a convenient, sympathetic breast to 'cry' on, and so became his final, grasping fantasy. (I sometimes wonder if HA initially went after Demelza because he resented the fact that Ross and his ragtag civilian crew had rescued him, a naval officer, and he immaturely wanted to humiliate Ross. (But that's a speculation for another thread.)

I would also argue that Ross was a romantic husband. He didn't sit around writing poetry all day, wasn't his temperament and he had to make a living. But he was always doing and saying little sweet, uncontrived, unexpected things. Like, about the scar on Demelza's knee: "Blemishes on the beauty of a person one loves are like grace notes adding, something to, a piece of music."   Better than any of HA's fluff.

 Finally, I wonder if HA had lived, what would have been the resolution of that triangle. (Suspenseful music...)

Would our heroine Demelza have run off with her lover, HA?  During her infamous reflection about her sandy romp with HA, the text states:

"She did not see it as a happening that was likely to recur."

It's that likely that WG threw in there that makes me wonder. If she were definitely decided, why not say, "she would make sure it never happened again."

So, I wonder if, like some randy dog, HA started making frequent visits to Nampara when Ross was away, would Demelza be likely to find excuses to show him, instead of the wonders of Seal Hole, the wonders of the rarely used Nampara cellar?  confused.gif

 

 



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SusanneMcCarthy wrote:

I really don't think Demelza intended to have a physical affair with Hugh. As I see it, she was charmed by him as a handsome and romantic young man, who openly adored her - while Ross could rarely be accused of being romantic! Until the day of the seal cove visit - indeed, until they were on the beach - I think it was nothing more than a fantasy romance to her. Then the warmth and privacy began to meld reality and fantasy, and the recollection of Jud's tale about Ross and Elizabeth weakened her resistance - not in the sense of consciously wanting revenge, but in undermining her hard-won confidence in herself. If Ross didn't love her, at least this young man did.    

I don't see her as naive and innocent, nor as selfish. I think she slid into it as an incremental thing, as so often happens in real life. She let herself persuade herself of Hugh's arguments, at least for that moment, though the sensible side of her knew it wasn't true. Hence she both felt guilty and not-guilty at the same time - guilty because she knew it would hurt Ross, but she couldn't quite regret it because that earthy side of her knew it had been something beautiful but never-to-be repeated. 


 I remember reading somewhere (it may have been on a forum here) that Hugh was the first man to treat her like a lady and perhaps that was partly what she couldn't resist. Where I disagree with you, Susanne, is when you say she wasn't naive. This was the first man to treat her as a lady and I think she found that difficult to resist. Also this man was ill and dying and I think that played a part in her decision. Interesting that she never told Ross and I think she must have known she was jeopardising her marriage, yet she still gave herself to him. I have to say that I hold Hugh to be more responsible than Demelza. He just would not give up. Horrible man!



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LJones41 wrote:

I don't think Demelza had approached her affair with Hugh Armitage with naive eyes.  I do not believe she had been manipulated by Hugh to sleep with him.  She had made up her mind not long after learning that Ross and Elizabeth had seen each other in that churchyard by Jud.  Both she and Hugh went into their affair with their eyes wide open.  I believe Hugh was in love with Demelza in his own youthful way.  And I believe Demelza was in love with Hugh - but not as much as she was in love with Ross.

I don't see the need to paint Demelza and Hugh's affair as one in which a naive woman's innocence was manipulated by a scheming man.  Both knew what they wanted and both knew what they were doing.  And to paint Hugh as being selfish and not Demelza doesn't seem right to me.  In a way, both were selfish.  Considering that love is selfish anyway, I don't really find this surprising.

-- Edited by LJones41 on Saturday 11th of February 2017 05:40:46 PM


 I re-read this part of the Four Swans recently and felt it was full of manipulation by Hugh Armitage. He just would not let go. Of course Demelza is responsible for her decision but HA played with her emotions selfishly to get what he wanted. As a character, I detest him.



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I really don't think Demelza intended to have a physical affair with Hugh. As I see it, she was charmed by him as a handsome and romantic young man, who openly adored her - while Ross could rarely be accused of being romantic! Until the day of the seal cove visit - indeed, until they were on the beach - I think it was nothing more than a fantasy romance to her. Then the warmth and privacy began to meld reality and fantasy, and the recollection of Jud's tale about Ross and Elizabeth weakened her resistance - not in the sense of consciously wanting revenge, but in undermining her hard-won confidence in herself. If Ross didn't love her, at least this young man did.    

I don't see her as naive and innocent, nor as selfish. I think she slid into it as an incremental thing, as so often happens in real life. She let herself persuade herself of Hugh's arguments, at least for that moment, though the sensible side of her knew it wasn't true. Hence she both felt guilty and not-guilty at the same time - guilty because she knew it would hurt Ross, but she couldn't quite regret it because that earthy side of her knew it had been something beautiful but never-to-be repeated. 



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I don't think Demelza had approached her affair with Hugh Armitage with naive eyes.  I do not believe she had been manipulated by Hugh to sleep with him.  She had made up her mind not long after learning that Ross and Elizabeth had seen each other in that churchyard by Jud.  Both she and Hugh went into their affair with their eyes wide open.  I believe Hugh was in love with Demelza in his own youthful way.  And I believe Demelza was in love with Hugh - but not as much as she was in love with Ross.

I don't see the need to paint Demelza and Hugh's affair as one in which a naive woman's innocence was manipulated by a scheming man.  Both knew what they wanted and both knew what they were doing.  And to paint Hugh as being selfish and not Demelza doesn't seem right to me.  In a way, both were selfish.  Considering that love is selfish anyway, I don't really find this surprising.

-- Edited by LJones41 on Saturday 11th of February 2017 05:40:46 PM



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Welcome to the forum, Dave.  Hope you have plenty of ideas for discussion.  Enjoy what is on offer.

It sounds as though you haven't read the books after Jeremy P. 

May I make a suggestion?  Get yourself a copy of books 4-12 and settle down for a marathon read.  I don't think you'll be disappointed.  The is so much more to the written word and you will find answers and resolutions to your queries.

As you will most likely have read here, the TV series isn't that faithful to the books in series 2.

We look forward to hearing all your views.

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SusanneMcCarthy wrote:

I think Demelza was quite naive about Hugh. She was quite well able to recognise and deal with all the men who were plainly after a bit of rumpy-pumpy, but I don't think she realised it would come to that with Hugh. His approach was so different to the likes of Hugh Bodruggan or Malcolm McNeil. She saw him in a romantic mist - declaring eternal love, writing her such lovely poems. And because she was unsuspecting, she found it difficult to give him a flat out refusal when he persuaded her to go to the seal cove - she couldn't think of a good enough reason, she didn't want to upset him, and it would have felt impolite. 

Then when they were there, it was a time-out-of-time. A hot day, a secluded cove, a man who had just shared a tragic secret. Demelza was a very "giving" person, and he seemed to play on that. 

I definitely don't think it was revenge - but the thought that passed through her mind was not so much the "9th May incident" but Jud's little bit of gossip about seeing Ross with Elizabeth, making more of it than had really happened, just when she had probably been starting to feel more secure in her relationship with Ross again. I think that caused her to wobble at the critical moment.

As for how Hugh felt about her... I think it was what he thought was love, but it was so completely lacking in honour, or any concern for the man who had saved his life, that it couldn't be love at all. It was pure selfishness.


Nicely put, Susanne. You've touched on every point that has occurred to me but one, and you articulated them well. I especially agree about Jud's revelation. I suspect, like me, you are remembering this conversation from the end of "Warleggan":

      (Ross:) "I want to tell you that Elizabeth means nothing to me anymore."
      (Demelza:) "Dont say that, Ross. I shouldnt want for you to say more than you feel" 
      (Ross:) "But I do feel it"
      (Demelza:) "Yes, at present. But then again sometime, perhaps next month, perhaps next year ..."

(I love the cadence of that final sentence. It has always reminded me of "Casablanca": "Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but soon and for the rest of your life.")

Demelza would like to believe him, but she has been down this road before with Ross too many times. Not where Elizabeth was concerned, but with closing Wheal Grace and other things important to their lives. 

As for the thing you didn't mention that also occurred to me, it is Demelza's ambition for Ross. She felt he should occupy a more august place in the world because, well, because he's Ross. Now things were starting to turn in his favor, and he was getting more comfortable with the idea. She still was disappointed that he turned down the magistrate position -- for good reason (He could do more to prevent future Jim Carters on the bench.). I suspect she didn't know how to discourage Hugh Armitage permanently without running the risk of offending the Boscawens, and if Ross was going to rise in the world, he needed to be on good terms with both the Bassetts and the Boscawens. 

There is a very telling incident from this period. Demelza and Ross are at a dinner at either the Bassetts' or the Boscawens' (I forget which), and another of the guests is an aged and respected general, who is placed beside Demelza at dinner. The old man keeps putting his hand on her leg, and she keeps moving away until she is practically in Dwight Enys' lap -- the man sitting on her other side. She is at a loss as to what she can do to make the old man stop. He is an important guest so she can't publicly offend him, but she doesn't like what he is doing. She does nothing, and as soon as dinner is over, she excuses herself to find a mirror. To her dismay, her frock is marked with grease stains from the man's hand. Does she say anything to anyone? Of course not. She makes a note to herself to ask Ross whether putting one's hand on the leg of the woman sitting next to one is the done thing and whether he does it. Unfortunately, that darn WG didn't write that conversation. It would have been interesting to learn what advice Ross would give for handling such problems. (Hold a fork on her thigh, tines facing up? Send the general the ruined dress and the bill for a replacement? Actually, Ross probably would have said, "Tell the old goat to keep his hands to himself, and don't worry about who hears you.")

As for Hugh Armitage, maybe someone quite young becomes extremely selfish after his life suddenly acquires a use-by date. I don't see a spoiled rich kid used to taking whatever he wanted, like Valentine. Instead of sending him to school, his family sent him to sea at 14 or thereabouts. He sounded like the good kid who did what he was told, dotted all the "i's" and crossed all the "t's," and life still didn't turn out for him.

Maybe once he knew his life would soon be over, he no longer felt gratitude for being rescued. Maybe that rescue -- and even meeting Demelza -- made the thought of dying more painful. If you starve or die of disease in a prisoner-of-war camp, death is a liberation. 



-- Edited by Dark Mare on Friday 23rd of December 2016 04:12:50 AM

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I think Demelza was quite naive about Hugh. She was quite well able to recognise and deal with all the men who were plainly after a bit of rumpy-pumpy, but I don't think she realised it would come to that with Hugh. His approach was so different to the likes of Hugh Bodruggan or Malcolm McNeil. She saw him in a romantic mist - declaring eternal love, writing her such lovely poems. And because she was unsuspecting, she found it difficult to give him a flat out refusal when he persuaded her to go to the seal cove - she couldn't think of a good enough reason, she didn't want to upset him, and it would have felt impolite. 

Then when they were there, it was a time-out-of-time. A hot day, a secluded cove, a man who had just shared a tragic secret. Demelza was a very "giving" person, and he seemed to play on that. 

I definitely don't think it was revenge - but the thought that passed through her mind was not so much the "9th May incident" but Jud's little bit of gossip about seeing Ross with Elizabeth, making more of it than had really happened, just when she had probably been starting to feel more secure in her relationship with Ross again. I think that caused her to wobble at the critical moment.

As for how Hugh felt about her... I think it was what he thought was love, but it was so completely lacking in honour, or any concern for the man who had saved his life, that it couldn't be love at all. It was pure selfishness.



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I have not read that far in the books ( I am at the third book) how ever in the 2015-16 film she comes in to Warleggan's party dressed to the part ( all she needed was a Tiara with flashing sign saying "I'm Easy"). However when Margaret comes over to join the group with George and his toady and before O'Neil joins them , Demelza and Margaret have their back and forth catty talk. I think it is then that Demelza is starting to have second thoughts  about joining the "Whore Wives Club". In the film Demelza looked tentative when O'Neil starts coming on to her. Now in the book it may be different , looking forward to that episode. 

 



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I agree that HA was no gentleman. I think he was a predator who found Demelza an easy prey. As I recall, she'd only set eyes on him three times before she succumbed. He won his battle with a few poems and a couple of smoldering looks. I imagine someone like Caroline would have found his approach pathetic; unfortunately, Demelza was swept off her feet. I believe she already half had it in her mind to submit to HA when she insensitively shared with Ross her bizarre "nameless man/woman" fantasy. I remember a remark by one of the people interviewed in a program about the original series. The interviewee said something like, once Ross had committed adultery Demelza, not to be outdone, had to have her illicit fling too.

HollyHock,

I  do not believe Hugh Armitage a predator or (God Forbid) Demelza an easy prey!  Demelza was certainly capable of fighting off a randy man as she did in Warleggan with MacNeil.  Rather both characters being a compilation of what had gone on before in their lives and coming together at that specific moment in time when it all came together for both of them.  Ultimately it is the genius descriptive writing of Winston Graham that can cause us to infuse our own imagination into these characters .....and enjoy every minute of it!!



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It's so wonderful to have everyone's response to my post. I won't address every point, but thank you for giving me the different perspectives. I'm only on "Ross" in my re-read, so when I get to TFS I will read about Hugh again with different eyes, and I suspect that my original perception of the incident may undergo a change!  Pity, because I really want to believe the best of Demelza (biased, I know).

Hollyhock, you are so right about Demelza getting away with this lightly. It seems to me that someone should have seen something suspicious that day. Maybe they did, but WG couldn't see a way to make it fit with the story, so he left them out.

A horrible thought has just occurred - surely in the TV series they won't emphasise this as a revenge act? Please no.



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Mrs Gimlett-thanks for reminding me of the sandy strip details. (Sounds like you had a lovely outing.) I find it painful to re-read even sections of TFS; it is such an emotional ordeal, switching as it does between Demelza's seduction and Morwenna's heartbreaking brutalization. I found it the most difficult of all the novels.

I agree that HA was no gentleman. I think he was a predator who found Demelza an easy prey. As I recall, she'd only set eyes on him three times before she succumbed. He won his battle with a few poems and a couple of smoldering looks. I imagine someone like Caroline would have found his approach pathetic; unfortunately, Demelza was swept off her feet. I believe she already half had it in her mind to submit to HA when she insensitively shared with Ross her bizarre "nameless man/woman" fantasy. I remember a remark by one of the people interviewed in a program about the original series. The interviewee said something like, once Ross had committed adultery Demelza, not to be outdone, had to have her illicit fling too.

I know we have different opinions about Demelza's guilt, or lack of, but that is not the critical issue for me. My biggest disappointment still is that she never apologizes to Ross; oh, not for committing adultery, no accounting for taste, but she admits she had a "compulsive sensuous impulse to lie with another man for once in her life." So she was going to cheat. My disappointment lies in the fact that she didn't have the strength of character to apologize to Ross for all the anguish she caused him with her very open affair of the heart. At the end of Warleggan, Ross offers her that lovely, heart-melting apology for all the pain he caused her:

`And there's one other thing I want you to know,' he added. `That is how deeply sorry I am that I ever hurt you in the first place - in May, I mean. You were so undeserving of any harm. All these months. I know how you will have felt. I want you to know that. If you had gone off with McNeil, I should have had only myself to blame.'

That was why Ross felt cheated by HA's death; because unlike his sharing with Demelza his realization that he loved her over the ideal of Elizabeth, Demelza never told him that even if HA had lived, she would have chosen him, Ross, over whatever it was that HA gave her. If she had told him that HA could never replace him in her heart I think Ross would have been satisfied, adultery or not. Instead, Demelza selfishly focuses on her own feelings, again. This was another missed opportunity for meaningful conservation and a true reconciliation. (However that would have changed the plot of the AT.)

 



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Great Discussion

This is such a great storyline, and leaves a lot to the imagination, rightly or wrongly however I felt let down by Demelza and disappointed after this whole affair, not for what happened with Hugh, but for how she dealt with it afterwards, Ross always gets chastised for his actions, but it seems here that Demelza although probably suffering inwardly never shows any remorse or regret or understanding towards Ross' feelings. 

I felt this gets worse after the whole Monk Adderley storyline, yet again Ross is made to feel that he is in the wrong and Demelza blames him for the incident yet I rather think she had a very large part to play and handles the whole situation badly.

 



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Hollyhock - I too thought Demelza quite enjoyed herself on that crescent of sand by seal hole cave.  But I think the reasons for her submitting to Hugh were quite complicated.  In the back of her mind was the knowledge that Ross had seen Elizabeth (gossip from Jud) and she didn't know quite what was going on there because Ross hadn't told her of it.  Secondly, Hugh had just informed her that he was going blind and she felt terribly sorry for him.  He was young, good looking and there was a spark between them; she couldn't do other than pity his situation. I think she started off with good intentions and was quite sure she was strong enough to resist him.  However, Hugh persisted and kissed her and suddenly she felt differently. Once she had given in, I think it was wholeheartedly, (perhaps like Elizabeth eventually did).

The reason no-one saw them was because Nampara Cove, where the boat was kept, was their private property.  Nobody else went there (after the smuggling incidents).  The village was a good distance away - this is something else awry with the TV series - and the cave where the seals were was only accessible by sea.  The strand of sand they fetched up on was just a small strip left by the ebbing tide (such as I was on today) and because it was such a private place the event probably seemed quite unreal, difficult to relate to everyday things.  Not that I am condoning it, but I think Hugh was very much in the wrong by pursuing her as he did, because he knew she had some feeling for him.  A real gentleman would have desisted. 

I have always thought it strange that Ross didn't warn him off.  He liked Hugh, and knew of the fondness between him and Demelza , but somehow he acted in a way contrary to normal.  It would only have taken a few words and that would have been that, but for some reason it didn't happen.

Unlike you, Hollyhock, I think Demelza did suffer great guilt about what had happened.  She was up half the night worrying about it, considering how she had betrayed Ross' trust. It didn't alter her feelings for her husband, but I believe she was very uncomfortable for a long time.

The end of that book, though, when Ross and Demelza discuss her infatuation and Hugh's death, is the closest they come to an understanding of their situation out of all their many misunderstandings and differences.  Clowance de-fusing the scene is the equivalent of the wine fermenting, a lovely touch.



-- Edited by Mrs Gimlett on Tuesday 29th of November 2016 07:49:38 PM

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Fijane wrote

Thirdly, from all Demelza'a musings, both before and after, I felt she viewed this as a gift that she could give him. I don't sense any thought of mutual engagement (physical or spiritual) but more a bestowment of access to her body. It almost seems maternal, a granting of a wish.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Fijane--I totally agree that WG leaves a lot to the reader's interpretation.  For example, my interpretation of Demelza's sexual encounter is totally different. I get the impression that she was a very active participant in an act that gave her a great deal of satisfaction. The description of Demelza's surrender to HA is racy stuff for any time period: 

"Her heart was beating as if there was a drum inside her. Her mouth was so dry she could not swallow. The nakedness of her body inside her frock seemed to have suddenly become more apparent to her, seemed to flower. She gave a slight groan which she tried to suppress altogether but could not quite."

Then two days later after making love with Ross, she appears to remember her beach romp fondly, comparatively, and certainly without remorse:

"She had given herself to him with warmth and sensuous ease. There had been little or no embarrassment. It had happened, cut off from the rest of the world, under the hot sun."

I also seem to remember that the tryst may have lasted for quite some time . I think they left Nampara about 10 in the morning and didn't return until after 1:00. Even given their self-deluding excuse of a venture to Seal Cove, they had time for an indulgent roll around in the sand. 

The thing that always get me is that Ross always get caught when he does something that he shouldn't. Demelza never does. I find it incredible that not one of the village busybodies saw them going off together that day; no one was trolling the beach; no one saw them rolling around naked in the sand in broad daylight, in the middle of the day. 

 



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Fijane wrote:

Secondly, as a young man of his times, and inexperienced, I would doubt that it would cross his mind that she be anything more than passive in the act. I imagined it to be quite shortlived, given his inexperience and probably heightened anticipation. I certainly don't imagine a long afternoon of leisurely lovemaking. Sometimes we view characters as if they lived in the modern day, and therefore assume that Demelza would have done what a 21st century woman did. It was always assumed that sex was for men, and that women's reward for submitting was children. I do believe that couples in past times did mutually enjoy lovemaking, but I believe that it was something that they discovered together over the period of marriage, and did not ever mention outside their bedroom.

All the other issues mentioned below come into play as well (there is no simple act in any of WG's writings). But I do think that this is part of the reason that WG leaves it that Ross never knows for sure. If Ross found out for certain, then the beach part would become central to the story, and therefore diminish the impact of Demelza being emotionally touched by another man.


 Fjane

I found your post very interesting. There is only one thing that I disagree with. Hugh and that is Hugh's inexperience. 

'Yes, let me explain, as I wished to explain before. You think I set up an ideal which is impossible of attainment. But all poets are not romantic. I have not been a romantic, believe me. I've been in the navy since I was fourteen and Ive knocked about and seen a lot of life, much of it sordid. I have seen and known a number of women. I have no illusions about them.'

I truly like your interpretation of Winston Graham's reason for the uncertain knowledge that Ross has. I agree that if Ross had known about what had happened, that afternoon on the beach, that the act would have been become the focus and would have diminish the impact of Demelza's unfaithful heart. 

 



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This is a fascinating thread, thanks everyone for your comments. But as I read them all, it seems to me that I am alone in believing that Demelza did not "actively participate" in Hugh's actions on the beach. It was only while reading this thread that I became aware that other people seem to see the incident differently to me.

I have never believed that for Demelza it was anything other than a lie-back-and-think-of-England moment. Over the past few weeks I have pondered what did I read, that gave me that impression - here are my thoughts:

Firstly, HA's words - "let me make love to you" - in his mind it is something he will do to her, not with her. He is asking permission to use her.

Secondly, as a young man of his times, and inexperienced, I would doubt that it would cross his mind that she be anything more than passive in the act. I imagined it to be quite shortlived, given his inexperience and probably heightened anticipation. I certainly don't imagine a long afternoon of leisurely lovemaking. Sometimes we view characters as if they lived in the modern day, and therefore assume that Demelza would have done what a 21st century woman did. It was always assumed that sex was for men, and that women's reward for submitting was children. I do believe that couples in past times did mutually enjoy lovemaking, but I believe that it was something that they discovered together over the period of marriage, and did not ever mention outside their bedroom.

Thirdly, from all Demelza'a musings, both before and after, I felt she viewed this as a gift that she could give him. I don't sense any thought of mutual engagement (physical or spiritual) but more a bestowment of access to her body. It almost seems maternal, a granting of a wish.

Why does this make a difference?

I suppose, for me, it heightens the difference between the depth of what she has with Ross, and the shallowness of the physical act with Hugh. And it explains somewhat, what other commenters have stated to be a seeming lack of remorse on Demelza's part. I believe that in her mind the time on the beach was not as engaging to her as it was to Hugh. Whenever Demelza muses about the whole situation, it is the emotional attachment that concerns her.

But... (and it is a huge But..) for me this makes the emotional betrayal bigger. For Demelza, the much greater disloyalty was the entry of Hugh into her heart and emotions. I believe the physical act (for her) was less of an issue, than the way Hugh came into her being, and pushed Ross to the outer. I think she was shocked by the betrayal of her own emotions, which she believed were settled on one man only.

All the other issues mentioned below come into play as well (there is no simple act in any of WG's writings). But I do think that this is part of the reason that WG leaves it that Ross never knows for sure. If Ross found out for certain, then the beach part would become central to the story, and therefore diminish the impact of Demelza being emotionally touched by another man.

In summary, for me, the incident on the beach is less of an issue than all the surrounding story, because I believe that it didn't mean that much to Demelza either.



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Hi Vennor,

Neither do I don't think that Demelza suffered from a guilty conscience over her infidelity with HA.  That partially explains why she had no qualms about holding on to his poems and looking grief stricken whenever his name was mentioned, even years after his death.  However I do think she had a guilty conscience and it sprang from the fact that she had failed to live up to her own code of how a wife should behave.  Although she didn't often articulate her views as concretely as Ross, Demelza was as morally centered and had very deep feelings about how people should behave, especially husbands and wives. Trust and loyalty in marriage were as important to her as love. So once, like Ross, she had betrayed these values, I think she felt kind of anchorless.  Her love for HA helped her understand Ross's infatuation for Elizabeth, but it also led her to betray her principles. She said something of this to Verity in Warleggen before Ross's betrayal.

 

 "Having a husband, it seems to me, is a small matter like going to church. Either you trust in something or you do not, If you do not, then there's no benefit in going to church at all, is there? But if you do believe in him, then you've no excuse to be asking, for proofs, all the time."

Of course the same would apply to a wife as well. So Ross's reflection in the Angry Tide, after his return from Parliament, that they had to "start again," helped put them on the road to rebuilding their mutual trust and loyalty. This is a Cinderella story that relates what happened after the marriage. Fortunately, after their many trials and tribulations, did they live happily.

 



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MrsMartin wrote:

Hello Vennor,

I don't believe that Demelza infatuation with Hugh and her ultimate infidelity, had anything to do with revenge but her lack of remorse certainly did. I think that though she had never intended to be unfaithful to Ross, that once she had and to ease her guilty conscience, by allowing herself to believe that she was justified in her behaviour because Ross had strayed first.


I agree that Demelza was not out for revenge when she had the afternoon with HA.  But, neither did she have a guilty conscience about it.  She was not of the "Methody" persuasion of her brothers, father, and stepmother.  So, she wouldn't have to justify her affair with HA to assuage her conscience.  It is just simply that for Demelza, the narrative changed.  Demelza was so grateful to Ross for taking her away from squalor and beatings and marrying her, and she was so in love with him that she would have done anything for him.  Certainly being faithful to him was a given.  This all changed when Ross went to Elizabeth that fateful night in May.  And Valentine would have been a constant reminder of that night (even though neither one of them ever spoke of his true parentage -- even when asked).  Had Ross resisted going to Elizabeth, Demelza would have flirted and had great compassion for Hugh, but would have never gone all the way with him or fallen in love with him.


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Hello Vennor,

I don't believe that Demelza infatuation with Hugh and her ultimate infidelity, had anything to do with revenge but her lack of remorse certainly did. I think that though she had never intended to be unfaithful to Ross, that once she had and to ease her guilty conscience, by allowing herself to believe that she was justified in her behaviour because Ross had strayed first.

Hollyhock wrote:

 Yes, Demelza did have longer with HA--than she'd had with McNeil--to process her feelings.  HA knew how to play the seduction game very well, and he had the leisure to do it. However, although her romance with HA was partly motivated by revenge, in exacting her revenge on Ross, as so often happens, there was an unexpected outcome. She fell in love with HA.  Oh, I believe she still loved Ross, but she was in love with Hugh. That best explains her undisguised feelings, her "divided loyalty," when she spoke to Ross about HA, who had warned her:

 

Hi Hollyhock,

I am not sure that Demelza was ever in love with Hugh, I think she just got caught up in the romance of having someone paying ardent court to her, writing her poetry and that person was a tragic figure that was gravely ill. It was not love though it was just romance. The love that Ross and Demelza share is a deep to the soul kind of love, an everyday living kind of love and neither Elizabeth or Hugh, could ever come close to matching.



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Vennor wrote:

_______________________________________________________________________

After reading all the postings about Demelza and Hugh's tryst on the beach, it struck me that (on Demelza's part) it was ultimately payback for Ross' indiscretion with Elizabeth.  Something jumped out at me from the second read through of Warleggan that only made sense because I had knowledge of the previous read through 10 years before.  At the Bodrugan party, even though Demelza was bent on revenging herself on Ross, she didn't have enough time to process her feelings or be properly wooed and she couldn't force herself to be unfaithful.  She rejects McNeil even though she encouraged him and went to the party specifically for revenge.  When Hugh enters the picture, she is persuaded to accomplish her "getting even" quietly and gently, without even a thought to it.  That is why she doesn't reject Hugh and never regrets it.  The playing field is now even.

__________________________________________________________________________

Yes, Demelza did have longer with HA--than she'd had with McNeil--to process her feelings.  HA knew how to play the seduction game very well, and he had the leisure to do it. However, although her romance with HA was partly motivated by revenge, in exacting her revenge on Ross, as so often happens, there was an unexpected outcome. She fell in love with HA.  Oh, I believe she still loved Ross, but she was in love with Hugh. That best explains her undisguised feelings, her "divided loyalty," when she spoke to Ross about HA, who had warned her:

"There's not really room for two men in a woman's heart, is there?"

But by then it was too late; HA had played his game well and won her heart.

She tells Ross after HA's death:

"I never intended. This crept on me unawares. I never thought - you must know I never thought... I am so sad. For - for all things."

Years later, Demelza tells Clowance when they were discussing Clowance's attraction to Stephen Carrington:

D: "You may go through life only seeing and feeling that electric charge in one man. Or at the most two."

C: "Have you felt it in two?"

D: "I have felt it in two."

She had her revenge but in the process she suffered; I think she grieved for HA for the rest of her life.



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 MrsMartin,

Exactly! Demelza manipulates the situation, yet again, and makes Ross feel guilty for her indiscretions. Instead of Ross, she should have been the one sent to Parliament.  The war with France would have been over in no time. And, what makes it so galling is that Ross has no friendly shoulder to lean on. They all, even Dwight, say it's over because Hugh is dead. What kind of a reason is that for a reconciliation? (It begs the question, what if HA had lived?)

No wonder poor Ross is angry (and goes net fishing in the middle of the night, and gets caught in vellows, and nearly drowns Jud, and gate crashes at Trenwith, well...just saying.)

All things considered, Ross handled the situation like the Knight in shining armor that he is and comes across as the bigger person (no heart palpitations here).

_____________________________________________________________________________

MrsMartin wrote:

I don't remember Demelza suffering from self loathing, I don't remember Demelza feeling any empathy towards Ross for what she had done to him, I don't remember her sorrow.  In fact she gets angry with Ross when he comes back from Parliament, that he is a stranger to her and doesn't seem to comprehend his anger an jealousy. She tells Ross that, her affair of the heart with Hugh is over, that she has made her choice and that there could be no other choice,  not because she loves Ross more or any other reason than that Hugh is dead. I sorry, but I don't see that Demelza does anything to ease Ross' pain or to soothe his jealousy. 

______________________________________________________________________________



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Mrs Gimlett wrote:

I think some of us are trying to over-analyse the Demelza and Hugh thing.  Anyway, Demelza did suffer for what happened, she loathed herself for a long time and must have felt extremely lonely and sore when Ross left almost immediately for Parliament.

That break did them both good though and they were each able to step back and realise how much they meant to each other. 


 I don't remember Demelza suffering from self loathing, I don't remember Demelza feeling any empathy towards Ross for what she had done to him, I don't remember her sorrow.  In fact she gets angry with Ross when he comes back from Parliament, that he is a stranger to her and doesn't seem to comprehend his anger and jealousy. She tells Ross that, her affair of the heart with Hugh is over, that she has made her choice and that there could be no other choice,  not because she loves Ross more or any other reason than that Hugh is dead. I sorry, but I don't see that Demelza does anything to ease Ross' pain or to soothe his jealousy.  

 

 



-- Edited by MrsMartin on Thursday 12th of May 2016 03:06:50 AM

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After reading all the postings about Demelza and Hugh's tryst on the beach, it struck me that (on Demelza's part) it was ultimately payback for Ross' indiscretion with Elizabeth.  Something jumped out at me from the second read through of Warleggan that only made sense because I had knowledge of the previous read through 10 years before.  At the Bodrugan party, even though Demelza was bent on revenging herself on Ross, she didn't have enough time to process her feelings or be properly wooed and she couldn't force herself to be unfaithful.  She rejects McNeil even though she encouraged him and went to the party specifically for revenge.  When Hugh enters the picture, she is persuaded to accomplish her "getting even" quietly and gently, without even a thought to it.  That is why she doesn't reject Hugh and never regrets it.  The playing field is now even.

................................................

Up to that moment there had been a strong element of doubt in her feelings.  The terrible sick hurt within her goaded her on in spite of these very peculiar feelings which were attacking her now, which swept over her, wave after wave.  Hurt pride and all the other things were working hard on breathing space, still a little time to relate one emotion with another, so that there should still be an ultimate freedom of choice, a rejection or an acceptance within her heart.  Had he been a subtler man and given her time, she could have done this.  But he did not give her time, and so the new feelings grew stronger than the old and his compliments slid past unheeded.

................................................

 

 



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Thank you, Ross. I've really enjoyed lurking and decided to plunge in.



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A warm welcome to the Forum Hollyhock hope you enjoy it all....! smile



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Hello Mrs. Gimlet,

Nice to meet you! My name was inspired by the beautiful flowers.

I don't recall that Demelza ever expressed any self-loathing.  Her fear was that Ross would discover that she had committed adultery with HA, and that there would be resulting consequences to their lifestyle.  As I recall, after she makes love with Ross just a couple of days after having sex with Hugh Armitage, she gets out of bed, stands by the window, and reflects:

"It was just a trifle disconcerting that she did not feel very much changed in any way as a result of it [her sexual encounter with HA]. That was not to say that she had spent a happy two days since. At times the discomfort and apprehension she felt might well have been mistaken for bitter remorse for wrong-doing. Unfortunately the remorse was something of which she had to remind herself rather than a sensation welling up naturally from her conscience. The true discomfort grew out of something different. At the moment, what had happened on Tuesday was an event in isolation, unconnected with the past, unattached to the future. But if Ross knew of it, even got to suspect it, then the anonymity of the experience would be shattered, the isolation broken into, and her life with him might be laid waste."

But I think the point is not that she committed adultery, or that she should have felt remorseful about that. The point is that she never felt the need to apologize to Ross for being "unfaithful in spirit," which left so much unresolved. That is the thing that seems to not ring true in a character who is otherwise sensitive, empathetic,  and admirable. 

But Judas, this is the stuff that makes for late-night page turning while sipping port.



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MrsMartin,

I agree that Demelza's passion for Hugh Armitage seemed to level the playing field between her and Ross. Near the end of the Angry Tide, after Elizabeth's death, when Ross is trying to come to grips with his feelings, he says to Demelza:

"Not long ago you lost someone you - loved. It - bites deep.' 'Yes,' she said. 'It bites deep.'"

I'm not sure she could have commiserated with Ross if she had not loved and lost HA.

These characters are so richly drawn that they invite much introspection. What a joy. 



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Welcome to our world, Hollyhock.

Are you named for Demelza's horse or for her favourite flowers?

I think some of us are trying to over-analyse the Demelza and Hugh thing.  Anyway, Demelza did suffer for what happened, she loathed herself for a long time and must have felt extremely lonely and sore when Ross left almost immediately for Parliament.

That break did them both good though and they were each able to step back and realise how much they meant to each other. 

The post about Monk Adderley is off-topic and will probably be put into another thread. 



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Hello Hollyhock and welcome.

It is my belief, that just because Ross had his extramarital encounter first, Demelza feels almost justified in her encounter with Hugh.  In Angry Tide after Ross comes back from London for the first time, Demelza seems to state that this.

'Is this the difference between a woman and a man, Ross? For after all, all my life with you I have had to fight - not a shade but an ideal -Elizabeth. I - have always had to compete.'

'Not for a long time now. But perhaps you're right. What's sauce for the goose...' 

Even to the end of the story, it seems that Demelza continues to hold Ross' night with Elizabeth against him, probably because of Valentine. In Bella Poldark, I'm not sure if it is because she is still grieving for Jeremy and she believes that Ross has replaced him in his heart with Elizabeth's son, or because she is still resentful over his encounter with Elizabeth but whatever the reason is, I feel that Ross' infidelity is held against him more than Demelza's infidelity is held against her and not just by the author, but by the readers as well. 

Although, I will say that I don't think that Demelza would have had any kind of encounter with Hugh, had he not been gravely ill. I also believe that, Demelza's encounter with Hugh helped to balance her relationship Ross, by showing her what it was like to have someone else in her heart other than Ross and for Ross to experience the anger, doubts, the jealousy of having to share his wife's affections.

 



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pint-of-mild wrote:

Monk Adderley is a queer character through and through!  Like you say, Dark Mare, Ross didn't like him from the moment he first met him.  I wonder if this too had something to do with how things panned out?  Did the dislike play a part in Ross's reaction?  If he'd not disliked Adderley so, maybe he would have simply laughed it off than rise to the challenge of a duel.

Or maybe, Ross was starting to have a bit of a mid-life!  The need to recapture his daring youth was given partly as an excuse to Demelza as to why he'd snuck over to Trenwith that night.  There's nothing more daring than fighting a duel!

-- Edited by pint-of-mild on Tuesday 10th of May 2016 03:55:47 PM


 It's interesting that you should say Ross took an instant dislike to him; my thought was Adderley seemed to have taken a dislike to Ross before he even met him -- he had been watching him with Elizabeth from inside Trenwith. It was almost as if Adderley was picking out his next dueling target. 

 

 

 

 



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Hi all. I am loving this Board! Thank you!

MrsMartin, thank you so much for your brave input on the Demelza-Hugh Armitage affair, er, storyline. I felt compelled to weigh in on this topic because it is one of the few subplots in the whole series that I felt was unresolved. It is so unconscionable (and insensitive on her part) that Demelza would not have apologized to Ross for breaking his heart. I agree that if she wanted to remain deceitful about actually having sex (ugh) with the despicable, sluglike Hugh Armitage, that is one thing; but that she would refuse to apologize to Ross for all the heartache and stress that she caused him--with all her flushing, shivering, and trembling--through her emotional involvement with this man is quite another thing.

At the end of The Four Swans, when she is weeping disconsolately over Hugh's death, she says to Ross, "these are not the tears of a penitent...I weep for Hugh- and for myself--and for--and for the whole world." Ross had to then plead with her, "Set some tears aside for me...for I believe I need them." She could not include Ross even in her tears. This was truly heartbreaking.

I too greatly admire Demelza and think she is a wonderful character, but from that point on (and this may be considered blasphemous) I found her manipulative, sneaky, and controlling. Just asking, what wife would go to London (Angry Tide) and let some creepy freak like Monk Adderly fondle her in front of husband, especially if her husband is trying his best to recover from a very recent wifely betrayal.   And, she makes Ross take the blame for that whole dueling episode as well. Incredible.  And shame on Carolyn (whom I absolutely adore) for chastising Ross.  You gotta wonder if in this fictional universe Carolyn ever disapproved of Demelza's betrayal of Ross.  (Later on I was pleased that Ross felt some attraction for Harriet, GW's wife.)

And remember, it was the Machiavellian George Warleggan who sicced his mad dog, Monk, on Ross through his wager with Monk over Demelza's possible seduction. George had realized early on that Demelza was the chink in Ross's armor. Similar to her many suitors (as Ross himself observed), Demelza had only to crook her little finger and Ross came crawling.

All the way to the very end of Bella, in the stage coach back to Cornwall, I kept waiting for Demelza to show some remorse, even if only in an aside to herself, for breaking Ross's heart.  Alas, it never happened.

I also wonder, by the way, if Hugh Armitage had survived, if he would have been a regular at Nampara when Ross was away. Once the jar is open... Frankly, I don't think Demelza would have resisted.

But all of this makes for great reading, and re-reading, and re-reading!  Hey, is there a Poldark version of AA?



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Monk Adderley is a queer character through and through!  Like you say, Dark Mare, Ross didn't like him from the moment he first met him.  I wonder if this too had something to do with how things panned out?  Did the dislike play a part in Ross's reaction?  If he'd not disliked Adderley so, maybe he would have simply laughed it off than rise to the challenge of a duel.

 

Or maybe, Ross was starting to have a bit of a mid-life!  The need to recapture his daring youth was given partly as an excuse to Demelza as to why he'd snuck over to Trenwith that night.  There's nothing more daring than fighting a duel!



-- Edited by pint-of-mild on Tuesday 10th of May 2016 03:55:47 PM

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May I jump into this? There was something about Caroline's explanation of the Adderley duel that always bothered me. Yes, I accepted everything she said about the reason for Demelza's distress and shame (and thought it revealed a greater awareness of the worldview of someone raised in poverty than I would have expected from Caroline) and her theory of Ross' wish to have killed Hugh Armitage, but there was more to it. I just couldn't figure out what it was -- until I stumbled upon what Ross told Demelza after he returned from his stroll over to Trenwith the night George threw the big, splashy party attended by John Robinson, William Pitt's longtime fixer. That was the thing that was nagging at me:

Ross said: "But another man (Monk Adderley) came on us when we had spoken a few words. I've forgotten the name Elizabeth gave him, but he made the back of my hair stand up."

Sounds like foreshadowing. The funny thing is Ross had been talking to Elizabeth in the garden at Trenwith when Adderley came out of the house to see whether Elizabeth was being annoyed by Ross. Adderley was unnecessarily rude to him from the moment they were introduced. Why? I went back several pages and found these lines:

... George Warleggan and Monk Adderley? Elizabeth, pursued with the utmost tigrish courtesy by the young man, wondered for a little. 

... (George's) attitude to her was as possessive as ever but with, she fancied, a new trust; she was no longer followed wherever she went in Truro; and Monk Adderley's feline attentions did not seem to upset him.

Ross seemed to have recognized Adderley as a threat -- if only unconsciously -- long before Demelza set foot in London, and Adderley might have engineered a way to get Ross to face him   in Hyde Park whether Demelza was in London or not. Would Elizabeth have been involved? I can't see how, but Adderley is a loose cannon so who knows?

After Ross described his encounter with Adderley, Demelza took issue with his visit to Trenwith, and Ross offered what could be a little more foreshadowing:

Demelza came across to him. "It's the wrong sort of thing to do, Ross. Oh, I don't mean because of Elizabeth now. I mean because it's in the spirit of enmity, of -- of challenge. You said a few years ago that we had all we wanted. You said -- exactly --  live and let live . . . Is it because I've failed you since then?"

He patted her hand. "Perhaps we've failed each other -- just a little anyway. But don't magnify this, don't blow it up and out of proportion -- it was a single act of -- of unreason, if you like. You have to face the fact -- must have faced it long ago -- that I am not always a reasonable man."

Demelza sighed. She could say no more to this.

 

 



-- Edited by Dark Mare on Tuesday 10th of May 2016 06:34:32 AM

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Hi Pint-of-Mild,

I don't think you came across bluntly and I believe we can discuss this subject without anyone being right or wrong, I am just expressing my opinions, as well. I don't know if Ross and Demelza's marriage would have ended if she had confessed the extent of her relationship with Hugh, Ross is a very fair minded person, that is one of the things I love about him the most. I remember reading a passage in a M.M. Kaye novel regarding love and it was something along the lines of "She knew she didn't love him now, because although what he had done, would have made her angry and hurt,  she would not have been able to stop loving him." Ross would not have stopped loving Demelza, if she had been honest with him and I don't think their marriage would have ended because of her infidelity, that would have been hypocritical of Ross, but it may have stopped him from duelling with Monk Adderley. If Demelza had disclosed the full extent of her involvement with Hugh, instead of leaving it ambiguous, they might have been able to mend their relationship earlier and he might have not reacted to Monk Adderley's antics, the way he did. As I agree it would have been terrible for Ross and Demelza to part, it would have been worse if Ross had been mortally wounded by Monk Adderley or maimed for life. Don't get me wrong, I love Demelza as well but in this one instance, I believe that she owed Ross full disclosure, instead of leaving him floundering with his suspicions.



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Hi again, I'm sorry if I've come across a bit bluntly, it's hard sometimes to express one's meanings through type!  I'm not trying to say that I'm right, it's all just my own humble feelings and opinions from my readings.  We're getting into grounds here which, I think, go much deeper than the books.  We're touching on personal issues and ideas about relationships, I'm sure that eveyone has varying views on how they conduct themselves and how they expect others to.  I can only really comment from my own point of view.

'Unfaithful in spirit' - what does that actually mean?  If Demelza is gulity of that, I believe that Ross is more so.  His infatuation with Elizabeth goes on and on, even, I believe, after she dies.  He tries to use that in his defense to say that his indiscretion was somehow more decent because it went on for so much longer.  To me, that just doesn't add up, I think it's worse actually.  I just think that for her to make any valid apology, she would have to confess all to Ross, which may not be in the best interest for their future together.  I feel that for her to apologise for the hurt she's caused him without admitting all is just a bit hollow.  I agree that D's being dishonest, disloyal and unfaithful.  She's run the risk of throwing everything away, for what?  Pity?  If she told R everything, I feel that they would be forced to have to make a decision about their marriage, which, God forbid, could have ended with them parting.  Who knows?  Would R remain in a marriage where he really knew he'd been cuckolded?  I'm not sure that he would.  Maybe D is cowardly for her actions, but I feel that maybe her keeping him in ignorance possibly saved their marriage. 

D is one of my idols, so, obviously, I'm going to try to stick up for her.  However, I'm always so disappointed in her for her involvement with Hugh, I always feel that she's a stronger person than that. 



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Pint-of-mild,

I am sure that Demelza could apologise for the pain she has caused Ross by her  "unfaithful in spirit", without apologising for the act itself, if her reasoning was that it better that Ross not know that she had committed adultery. Although, I believe that her actions in that respect were dishonest and cowardly.  I feel that Demelza is never condemned by anyone for her involvement with Hugh and that it is Ross that ends up looking like an idiot for his reaction to Monk Adderley.  It is Ross that is chastised by Caroline for his involvement with Monk and Demelza who feels that she has been wronged by it, but it is Demelza who is culpable for Ross' reaction to Monk antics. After Ross encounter with Elizabeth, although it might be an unsatisfactory apology, at least he says he is very sorry for all the pain he has caused Demelza and that she is his true love. I would have more respect for Demelza if she had been honest about what happen with Hugh and then tried to make amends for it. Better that, then to leave Ross believing the worst but never really knowing.



-- Edited by MrsMartin on Friday 6th of May 2016 02:32:31 PM

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