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Post Info TOPIC: Valentine Warleggan


Student

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Date: Jun 9 3:09 PM, 2017
RE: Valentine Warleggan
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LJones41,

I cannot imagine how you could possibly interpret my comment about Valentine's childhood abuse as being my 'point of view' about a questionable rape.  But no, for the record, my perception of Valentine's personality has absolutely nothing to do with a debatable rape.  If you want to argue that I urge you to refer to this topic: http://poldark.activeboard.com/t61746527/the-aftermath-of-may-9th/?page=1#comment-63064439

Let's leave this one for Valentine.



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Date: Jun 2 10:20 AM, 2017
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LJones41 wrote:

Valentine quite easily pitted Ross and George against each. Perhaps it was his revenge on both men. Like Elizabeth (perhaps because of her), he also easily manipulated Ross' feelings.

 

Is that your point of view?  That Elizaeth was raped because she managed to manipulate Ross' feelings?  And now Valentine is also guilty of simply manipulating Ross?  Are you saying that Ross is just an innocent in this whole mess?

 

 



-- Edited by LJones41 on Thursday 1st of June 2017 10:10:52 PM


May I venture into this? Ross had a guilty conscience. It didn't matter whether Valentine was his son. The fact that he was with Elizabeth on May 9th and was indiscreet enough to have been seen or heard by someone in the house -- possibly Agatha, but probably Agatha's maid -- meant Valentine would be the subject of gossip and speculation his whole life. Ross owed Valentine for that and the further harm done to him by George because George believed he was Ross' child. (Although I'm not convinced that Valentine's life would have been that much happier had there been no question that George was his father. Ursula was the apple of George's eye, and he still was not a terribly involved parent to her.) Also, Ross and George loved to fight with each other. Valentine gave them something else to fight about. Valentine learned two things growing up in George's house: how to recognize opportunity and how to exploit it. I would think there was more malice than simple opportunism in his actions if he hadn't done the same thing to Selina. Unless, that is, he was punishing her too for being an unfaithful wife (to Clement Pope) while bearing a strong resemblance to Elizabeth. I have to wonder whether Valentine was aware of the interest she had shown in Jeremy before she met him? (What an avenging "angel" he would have been in that case.)



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Date: Jun 1 10:10 PM, 2017
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Valentine quite easily pitted Ross and George against each. Perhaps it was his revenge on both men. Like Elizabeth (perhaps because of her), he also easily manipulated Ross' feelings.

 

Is that your point of view?  That Elizaeth was raped because she managed to manipulate Ross' feelings?  And now Valentine is also guilty of simply manipulating Ross?  Are you saying that Ross is just an innocent in this whole mess?

 

 



-- Edited by LJones41 on Thursday 1st of June 2017 10:10:52 PM

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Date: Feb 23 4:11 PM, 2017
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(Conversation continued from A Complete Change - The Settled Years?)

-----------------------------------------------

Valentine makes a rare, revealing comment to Paul:  

"I was at constant loggerheads with my father - my titular father - who often treated me like dirt, blew hot and cold, so that I came to hate him. Now I think I rather pity him. And I pity my other father. They have made a pretty mess of their lives and have tried to drag me in...Lately I have let them fund me out of a mess of my own making." Bella, 319. 

I think that the dastardly George's abuse of him as a child was at the root of Valentine's 'strangeness' (as Ross called it).  As a result, partly anyway, I think he became adept at manipulating people. (Verity also said that he reminded her of old Joshua). Because of their natural antipathy, Valentine quite easily pitted Ross and George against each. Perhaps it was his revenge on both men. Like Elizabeth (perhaps because of her), he also easily manipulated Ross' feelings. I recall at least two occasions when Ross and George had altercations as a result of Valentine's actions. The first (TLC) was at the party Geoffrey Charles gave after he re-claimed Trenwith. When Morwenna is made ill by the sudden appearance of her son, Ross is infuriated with Valentine for inviting him. George, just to be perverse I think, defended Valentine and of course he and Ross were at it again. Although I don't think he planned it, Valentine enjoyed the exchange enormously.

The second time (Bella) is when Valentine appeals to Ross to come and support him against George in his efforts to retain custody of his child. But I think Valentine was finally being sincere. That was another tear jerker for me and my heart was in my throat fretting for Ross (t'weren't fair for Ross lovers to be so manipulated). no  



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Date: May 3 7:39 PM, 2012
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Many of the things Valentine said, especially in the last book, and during the fire at Place House revealed that Valentine truly wanted to believe that Ross was his biolgical father, since he liked him a lot better, and knew in his heart that Ross was a better person than George.  Ross looking after the welfare of Valentine's son, young George, was Ross's way of making amends for his guilt toward his afair with Elizabeth which led to the fathering of Valentine.



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Date: Mar 28 8:25 PM, 2012
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I thought his relationship with his pet ape Butto was quite touching.  He seemed to get along better with this pet than he even did with any woman.



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Date: Mar 25 12:51 PM, 2012
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Please I do not have any of the Poldark novels around now,just wondered can I get them through the society.I read them once & loved them.



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Date: Mar 23 12:05 PM, 2012
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Valentine is indeed a terrible womaniser and ne'er do well. But I can't help liking him and was quite sad when he came to his end. Perhaps he couldn't take things too seriously because he found them too terrible to contemplate and so coped byadopting his light-hearted, careless attitude.

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Date: Mar 20 7:39 PM, 2012
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Valentine grows up to be a terrible womanizer.  Maybe not as bad as Rev. Whitowrth, but he thinks women exist to be his playthings.  After her marries Selina, even though he professes that she is the only woman that he loves, he tells her that she will have to endure his infidelities.  I lost what little respect I had for him after he took advantage of Agneta and broke her heart.



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Date: Jun 23 3:59 AM, 2011
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Bella wrote:

Dwight

Congratulations on your brilliant posting.

Bella


Indeed. I think in my case, I've become confused between the books and the tv series.....where it was very much left up to the viewer to decide (despite Geoffrey Charles's observation when Valentine was on his rocking horse.)
Definitely time I re-read all the books I think.

Bronny



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Graduate

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Date: Jun 22 10:29 PM, 2011
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Dwight

Congratulations on your brilliant posting.

Bella



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Date: Jun 22 10:25 PM, 2011
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Dwight wrote:

"standing staring down at the child which was all Elizabeth had left him. He was no philosopher and no seer, but had he been both he might have wondered at the fact that his fair-haired, frailly beautiful wife had now borne three children and that none of them would come to resemble her at all. Though Elizabeth had been constitutionally strong enough, perhaps some exhaustion in the ancient Chynoweth strain was to be the cause of this virtual obliteration of her personal appearance in any of her children, "and the dominance of the three fathers". Geoffrey Charles was already like Francis. Valentine would grow ever more like the man who had just left the house. And little Ursula would become  sturdy and strong and thick necked and as determined as a blacksmith".

So, including Elizabeth's confession of TWO full term pregnancies to the odious Dr Anselm, WG categorically did tell us a couple of times that Ross was Valentine's father, 


 Absolutely agree Dwight, WG, the great master of intrigue and suspense, divulges this great truth to his reader with magnificent skill, whilst cleverly leaving the characters he has created to ponder the question repeatedly throughout the years.  Verity the wise and sensible realises the truth along with Demelza with her earthy sense of realism as does Ross, in his heart of hearts, but maybe, the greatest irony is that George, the jealously suspicious and doubtful one, is the only person who eventually ends up believing that his beautiful and fragile, departed wife had told him the truth.  



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Date: Jun 22 11:04 AM, 2011
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Alison wrote:


"I was never sure exactly when (or really, if) everyone acknowledged that Valentine was Ross's son.  By the time of the 12th book Ross seemed to be certain of it but never actually said it, only acted in accordance with that knowledge."

I know we have had many discussions about Valentine's parentage, and whether WG ever spelt it out. We are given many hints that Ross,  Demelza, and indeed Elizabeth accepted the fact that Ross probably was Valentine's father. Indeed, within WG's original outline for the first four books effectively being one giant novel, exploring his version of the eternal triangle, between one man, and the two women he loves it is not unreasonable to assume this parentage after Ross forced himself (!!) on Elizabeth, upon hearing of her intention to marry his worst enemy in George Warleggan.

However, one of the strange things about constantly re-reading the same stories, is that each time, something new leaps out of the pages, in much the same way as repeatedly listening to a favourite piece of music, reveals a different nuance almost every time. And each time, you wonder how you could have possibly missed it last time around. So, much to my utter amazement, I have finally come across the sentence which Mrs Gimlett refers to below, wherein WG states categorically that Ross did indeed father Valentine. It appears in the paragraphs immediately after Elizabeth has died, so it's hardly surprising that we miss it considering the completely unexpected trauma of learning that Elizabeth will no longer be with us. (As an aside, bearing in mind WG's outline mentioned above, I wonder just why he did decide that Elizabeth had to die.)

Anyway, taken from page 602 of Macmillan's Centenary publication of "The Angry Tide", we read these few words, referring to the time just after Ross has fled heart-sick from Trenwith having witnessed Elizabeth's savage dissolution from the gangrene which killed her. George has just gone into Ursula's room where she is being looked after by Polly Odgers, and her wet-nurse. Thinking of Elizabeth's last moments he was:

"standing staring down at the child which was all Elizabeth had left him. He was no philosopher and no seer, but had he been both he might have wondered at the fact that his fair-haired, frailly beautiful wife had now borne three children and that none of them would come to resemble her at all. Though Elizabeth had been constitutionally strong enough, perhaps some exhaustion in the ancient Chynoweth strain was to be the cause of this virtual obliteration of her personal appearance in any of her children, "and the dominance of the three fathers". Geoffrey Charles was already like Francis. Valentine would grow ever more like the man who had just left the house. And little Ursula would become  sturdy and strong and thick necked and as determined as a blacksmith".

So, including Elizabeth's confession of TWO full term pregnancies to the odious Dr Anselm, WG categorically did tell us a couple of times that Ross was Valentine's father, it's just that somehow we missed picking up his definitive confirmation in the aftermath of Elizabeth's tragic attempt to convince George once and for all that contrary to fact, Valentine WAS his son.

Dwight



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Date: May 4 8:04 AM, 2011
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I think George did love Elizabeth, and I think he did all through his marriage to Harriet. Let's face it, Harriet's heart was not exactly bound to George. Like him, I think she married for money, and of course a title. Their marriage provided Valentine with a fellow conniver - him and Harriet were both slyly like-minded.
I find there's something very magnetic about Valentine's sleekness, and his quiet attractiveness.

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Date: May 3 1:35 PM, 2011
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In The Angry Tide when Elizabeth visits Dr Anslem she tells him that she has had two pregnancies both were full term.  So she herself admits that Valentine was Ross's son and George Warleggan's.



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Date: May 2 12:42 PM, 2011
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We do not seem to get many clues about how the rumour of Valentine's parentage got about.  Namps, below says something about Jud and Prudie knowing, but when Ross visited Trenwith on that night in May 1793, the faithful Gimletts were at Nampara.  They were not the type to gossip, more to keep a discreet distance and turn a blind eye to what Ross and Demelza did.

Having just re-read the churchyard scene from The Four Swans, Elizabeth never actually says anything about Valentine being Ross' child.  She only says that George is suspicious (he, of course, having been told by Agatha), and she cannot think why he is. She even says 'I am not saying that Valentine was not (a premature child)'.  They dismiss the likely sources, including George Tabb, who was known to sleep heavily after drinking heavily, and Agatha who was confined to her room.  Then they admit that Ross does not know the truth, nor does Elizabeth, it seems,  and certainly George does not really know.

So the rumours must have been started by villagers who, on hearing of Valentine's birth, deducted 9 months from his birth date and realised that Elizabeth was still a widow at that time.  Then they put two and two together, and possibly made 5. 

Of course, Elizabeth did fall on the stairs, which began her early labour, so that is another tantalising thread to throw into the mix.  WG was so clever at just vaguely hinting at possibilities, and it is not until much later that the storylines tie them up.

The only sentence that I can recall in any of the books that comes near to acknowledging Ross as Valentine's father was when Elizabeth died and WG says about the three children and the three fathers.  Geoffrey Charles, like Francis; Valentine growing more like the man who had just left (Ross) and Ursula, who was a true Warleggan.

Valentine himself was an oddball.  He delighted in shocking, treated most of his elders with contempt and enjoyed all the things monied men in those days often did.  Certainly he had an unhappy childhood, but many children then were brought up by a nanny/ maid, as parents dying young was not exceptional.  George is the one to blame for how he turned out - trying to give him material things instead of showing affection.  But George himself was was incapable of real love for family.  The bank balance  and power were his loves. I do not think he even loved Elizabeth in the way that most couples love each other, and she certainly did not love him.  So yes, Valentine was the victim of a dysfunctional family. People never knew where they were with him.  I would never have forgiven him for talking to Ross about his parentage so soon after Jeremy's death.  And in a way, Ross did not altogether act as would be expected, by heading him off once he saw the turn the conversation was taking. Perhaps, in his grief, he was not thinking straight.

 Demelza sums Valentine up beautifully in Bella P by saying that he is a dangerous young man who gives her the shrims.



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Date: May 1 2:50 PM, 2011
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Valentine Warleggan.



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Date: Apr 17 10:52 AM, 2010
Valentine
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Valentine's parentage was one of the most thrilling storylines for me.

I'm now sure he was Ross's son. Morwenna explains to Elizabeth, why she can't keep Ossie's son. He's a constant reminder of Ossie and how he was concieved "He's a Whitworth". Then Elizabeth thinks to herself "He's a Poldark" which I'm sure is reffering to Valentine, not Geoffery Charles.
In one of the later books, Verity notes the resemblance to the Poldark family. 
Valentine is lustful, a Poldark trait not a Warleggan one!

I think Aunt Agatha did know, she was in many ways a wise old lady, who had seen so much of life. She knew the child was too big for premature.

I never liked Ross as much after the Elizabeth incident, I could never quite forgive him! I know there was a big build up of feelings, but still.. anyone else feel this way, or does Ross pay the price for his weakness?



-- Edited by QueenMab on Saturday 17th of April 2010 10:52:56 AM

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Date: May 30 4:03 PM, 2009
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Just a thought .........

The kiddley was a great place for gossip amongst the locals.  If Jud picked up little titbits of information about goings on, then presumably other folk could do the same.  Seem to recall, but maybe it was only in the TV series, that Jud knew about the night 'the master', Ross was seen leaving Trenwith, someone had told him this juicy fact, can't remember who.  He was helping (or hindering) Prudie make the bed at Nampara at the time and they were discussing whether Elizabeth's baby was born after an eight or nine month long pregnancy.  There is always the chance that one of Agatha's servants could have picked up the same bit of gossip and passed it on to her.  There is mention in the books that this is the way she mainly keeps abreast of the neighbourhood news.

Also, being such an old lady, she has probably seen many newborn babies in her time, babies being born at home in those days.  She may well have witnessed the characteristics of premature babies during this time, although I'm not sure how many would have been born in her family during her lifetime.



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Graduate

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Date: May 30 10:37 AM, 2009
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The Black Moon, of course ends with Agathas accusation of Valentines parentage but i often wondered if Agatha knew that what she was saying was true or whether it was just the cruellest thing she could think to say to George in retaliation for him cancelling her birthday party. She had never mentioned it before and it seemed that she added it after she realised that mentioning Valentine name was Georges weak point.  She obviously came up with good reasons for her suspicions but none of them were absolute.  Whether she had always known that Valentine was not premature or whether she just made a shot in the dark is not clear. Any thoughts anyone?

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Date: May 29 9:06 PM, 2009
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I'm certain there are references in the books to Elizabeth's certainty that valentine was, in fact, Ross' son.  I'm pretty sure it comes up in more than one of the novels.  I know it's in The Four Swans and The Black Moon for sure.  I recall reading those passages very carefully, to make sure that it really did mean what I thought it meant.

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Graduate

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Date: May 26 8:23 AM, 2009
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Geoffrey Charles noted the resemblence once when Valentine was riding his toy horse and it was this comment that made George once again suspicious and distant and culminated in Elizabeth deciding to induce the premature birth of Ursula. I often wonder if Geoffrey Charles ever realised the impact his observations had on that household because the atmosphere must have immediately changed and both ELizabeth and George would surely have reacted in some way. Clever though that in some way or another Elizabeths destiny was controlled or affected by the actions of all the Poldark Men, she had very little control and must have felt utterly helpless and frustrated.

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Date: May 25 9:31 PM, 2009
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I believe that originally there is just a hint that Valentine may be Ross's son. However this is later confirmed as fact to the reader when his likeness to Ross's father is commented upon by Verity and in the last book this seems to have been accepted as a fact by both Ross and Demelza.  I have often wondered whether Valentine's likeness to Ross was ever noticed by his other children.   

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Date: Apr 17 9:11 PM, 2009
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Hi Alison and mcworster
Yes, I have to agree with you both about the later books, especially Bella.  I was quite disappointed with the way the storyline evolved here.  There was definitely something of the realism and magic of the earlier story missing and I really didn't like the way the whole Butto storyline went.  The murder/mystery plot culminating in the attack on Demelza seemed rather haphazard and not up to WG's usual standard.  Maybe we just have to accept that WG was quite an old man when he wrote Bella and just decided to have a bit of fun with the story.  Although I tried to savour the enjoyment of reading the very last Poldark story, I have to admit to feeling a little let down by the ending which I felt had a bit of an unfinished element and left too many things unresolved. 


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Date: Apr 17 8:25 PM, 2009
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Alison wrote:


I was never sure exactly when (or really, if) everyone acknowledged that Valentine was Ross's son.  By the time of the 12th book Ross seemed to be certain of it but never actually said it, only acted in accordance with that knowledge.  I have always hoped that Valentine wasn't Ross's son, because in my opinion he seemed more like George.   


I think the realisation that Valentine is actually his son springs from Ross's chance meeting with Elizabeth in the Sawle churchyard, when he goes to look at Agatha's grave and whilst sheltering from the rain, unexpectedly stumbles upon her alone.   Here they have their first opportunity to speak privately together since that fateful evening when Ross stole into her bedroom and they ended up in bed together.  Here too, is a sentence that tells us that although Ross's action that night initially shocked her, she was not an unwilling participant in the lovemaking which followed. Although she protested and was unwilling to discuss whether she knew when Valentine had been conceived, I think she secretly wanted Ross to be convinced that he was the father and I believe she succeeded. (In The Four Swans)

Changing the subject back to Valentine's health.  I wonder whether the fact that babies were breastfed by wet nurses in those days could have had any bearing on the possibility of him developing rickets?  What sort of diet would a wet nurse enjoy, this would no doubt have a significant impact on the nutritional value of the milk given to a baby?




-- Edited by namparagirl on Friday 17th of April 2009 07:36:27 PM

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Graduate

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Date: Apr 17 8:16 PM, 2009
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Hi Alison
I agree that the murder plot in Bella was totally out of keeping with the mood of poldark and in fact i was deeply disturbed when Demelza was in so much danger, it made my poldark world  dark and unfamiliar and not the place i was used to visiting!
However I thought Valentine was like Ross but a darker more sinister Ross, what Ross might have become if Demelza , love and companionship hadnt come his way. Valentine had Ross's cynicism, humour and  uncomformity, he didnt care what friends, family or society thought about him or his actions.
I have always thought there were three distinct  stages in the poldark books. The first four books have a different feel about them for me, i think you can tell they were written for a more innocent age and less worldly audience. I love all the books but the first four are closest to my heart.  

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Date: Apr 17 6:30 PM, 2009
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I grew up thinking that rickets was a disease almost entirely resulting from poor diet, so Valentine's bout with it seemed improbable.  I just read on the web that a a tendency to rickets sometimes can be inherited--that is, an inability to properly digest calcium can lead to it.  Also it can be found in infants born prematurely (although I think Valentine was a little old when he got it to think that it was a result of his premature birth.)  Anyway it was a pretty strange illness for him to contract, in my opinion.

I was never sure exactly when (or really, if) everyone acknowledged that Valentine was Ross's son.  By the time of the 12th book Ross seemed to be certain of it but never actually said it, only acted in accordance with that knowledge.  I have always hoped that Valentine wasn't Ross's son, because in my opinion he seemed more like George.  I am a strong believer in nature over nurture, having had stepchildren I couldn't influence and who acted much like their absent mother would have, even years after being raised differently, and having my own child who was basically raised by a nanny but who is just like me. 

Frankly my feelings about the Poldark novels are that there are two different eras, the first one being covered by the two BBC TV series, which were almost entirely about Ross and Demelza, and the rest of the novels, which were mostly about their children.  Although the children were interesting there is nothing, except maybe Jeremy's love for Cuby which comes close to the vigor/tension/excitement of the Ross and Demelza story.  I think some of the later stuff was quite contrived--I don't think Valentine's marriage to Selena rang true, nor that monkey stuff.  And I really really think that the murder mystery in "Bella Poldark" is totally out of line with the rest of the novels.  I guess Winston Graham was so used to writing thrillers that he figured he'd throw a little into Poldark but it seemed entirely out of place to me.

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Graduate

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Date: Apr 17 4:46 PM, 2009
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Valentine, im sure, would today benefit from counselling! He is a psychoanalysts dream with all those childhood traumas. His own illness as a result of Rickets, his Fathers (or presumptive father)cold attitude to him from an early age and then his Mothers death. I also felt that Elizabeth never felt the same unconditional love for Valentine, because of his parentage, that she did for Geoffrey Charles and im sure he would have sensed that.
He seemed to deliberately provoke people into disliking him or feeling uncomfortable around him , maybe as a reaction to how he felt as a child or because he didnt believe he deserved to have people like him. Interesting subject!

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Date: Apr 17 12:18 PM, 2009
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Just reading Stranger from the Sea again and got thinking about Valentine.  Previously his was a character I never really warmed to, possibly because George, although being a baddie and someone we love to hate, brought him up and I guess I felt that with George's influence he could only grow up to be a selfish, obnoxious and unpleasant individual.  However, this time round of reading, I find myself feeling more and more empathy with him and thinking about what a difficult time he must have had as a young boy growing up without his mother and only a detached and unemotional father to turn to.
At the supper party given by Caroline and Dwight when Valentine is sitting next to Clowance and they are chatting, I begin to view him differently.  Looking at Selina Pope, he is suddenly struck by her momentary resemblance to his beloved and beautiful mother and I wonder if this might explain his subsequent involvement with her.He is looking for a mother figure to fill theemotional gap in his life, she is beautiful and resembles Elizabeth.
Wonder if this explains why once married, he looks for other women for sexual fulfillment?

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